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Bubba

Jan 20, 2007, 1:53 PM

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A Death on the Carretera

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There is a lot of talk today on some local Lake Chapala forums about this Canadian couple who were run down while crossing the carretera in downtown Ajijic by a hit and run driver who allegedly ran a red light and then sped off. One of them died and I believe the other is badly injured. Without going into detail, this and some other incidents have stirred up some in the Canadian expat community and, while this just happened, there are all sorts of inferences flying around about incompetent Mexican authorities and the need for Canadians to consider whether or not Mexico is a safe place for our northern brethren. It is my opinion that much that is being said by many Canadians and Canadian governmental authorities would not be said except for the disrespect U.S. and Canadian visitors and ther governments have for their Mexican neighbors upon whom they look disdainfully presuming corruption, anarchy and racial inferiority and I find this unpleasant to behold.

We´ve lived in Mexico for about six years. It has also been our privilege to live in many places around the globe and we are the products of France and Alabama and California and many other places which have all contributed to whatever we are today in our 60s. The six years in Mexico has been a great trip so far and, over those years we have modified our behavior to conform more readily with the people living in our host country which is the place we plan to spend the rest of our lives.

We don´t know who ran over these people and there has been the inference that the driver was Mexican if for no other reason than that the driver sped off instead of stopping to face whatever consequences might have been forthcoming and helping his/her victims. That´s not an illogical assumption since most of us from places such as the U.S. and Canada know that, under the systems in which we were raised, the consequences of not stopping are almost always far worse than the consequences of stopping and administering aid to the victims. There are plenty of hit and run accidents in the rest of North America despite the possible consequences so this is not a locallized problem.

However, it must be said that the Mexican legal system encourages flight after a serious accident, especially involving death or serious injury. I have many stories I could tell about this. Flight by drivers of commercial vehicles after an accident is standard procedure. On my street alone, a water truck driver who used to be fond of backing up our one way street at a rapid speed, backed up over an elderly lady and killed her. He ran and hid for a few weeks and now he´s back at the wheel driving the same route albeit more cautiously. If this surprises you then get over it. It is almost certain that drivers at fault, especially commercial vehicle drivers will run for their lives and that is the responsibilty of the legal system that promises you ruin if you hang around, possible legal problems if you help the victims but possible forgiveness if you lay low for a while. It is an insane system but it is the system here. If you can´t live with that then stay away.

Just remember this above all else. In Mexico, there are Good Samaritans everywhere and that´s great but, pal, you are on your own, always remember that and act accordingly. Don´t be bringing your expectations down here based on past experience. If you don´t like that prospect, don´t come here. You will not be missed.

I remember renting a car at respectable Hertz in the 80s to drive from Penang Island, Malaysia to Singapore. The rental agent told me that, should I run over a villager anywhere along the route that. rather than stop to help, I must drive on and escape as. otherwise, the other villagers would lynch me on the spot.

If you want to survive in Mexico, walk and drive defensively. If you do this, you may live to a ripe old age in a wonderful place.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 20, 2007, 1:57 PM)

gringolandia

Jan 20, 2007, 2:23 PM

Post #2 of 41 (2502 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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Amen Bubba...but I doubt that you will change too many minds. Those that want to live in Rome usually understand that you must do as the Romans do...but here in Gringoville...they still expect the power and might of their country's legal system to be the law wherever they are. No one in their right minds could believe that these folks were targeted but that it what is being bandied about....

Brian

Jan 20, 2007, 3:01 PM

Post #3 of 41 (2494 views)

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Re: [gringolandia] A Death on the Carretera

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The Canadian press is being skeptical because this incident follows closely on the heels of another alleged hit and run death . Mexican officials say Adam DePrisco, 19, of Woodbridge died after being hit by a car outside an Acapulco nightclub. His family maintains DePrisco was beaten to death. If the police did coverup his death (not an unknown practice) than that is a disgrace and, fortunately, President Calderon is addressing the problem of police corruption head on. Mexico has its warts but I disagree that one must come to accept them. The average Mexican doesn't, why should visitors and expats?..I have seen countless surveys over the years in which Mexicans rank "la inseguridad" as the biggest problem in their country . Higher even than "el disempleo". "Ni modo" doesn't necessarily mean things will never change for the better so get over it.

Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Jan 20, 2007, 4:39 PM)

Bubba

Jan 20, 2007, 3:40 PM

Post #4 of 41 (2480 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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His family maintains DePrisco was beaten to death. If you can't live with the fact that the police in Mexico fabricate stories to coverup homicides then don't come to Mexico. Is that right?

Brian. You are a smart guy. but the answer is YES! Don´t come to Mexico. Also, don´t go to Detroit or Moscow or Lagos or Cairo. Stay home and hide under the bed.

This is not news to me. If DePrisco wants to go out drinking until all hours of the night in a town like Acapulco and messes around with a local woman he is asking for trouble. Then his Canadian family comes down here and disparages Mexico because he did what we all did when we were 19 and, somehow, survived. The mean streets of Acapulco are no different than the mean streets of Birmingham or Toronta or Paris or a thousand other towns where shit hits the fan. How can you compare a young stud in a nightclub at 2:00AM with a couple of goobers crossing a street in Ajijic after dark?

Police everywhere fabricate stories. The job is corrupting by its very nature.

Get serious.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 20, 2007, 3:41 PM)

tonyburton / Moderator

Jan 20, 2007, 5:07 PM

Post #5 of 41 (2444 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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It worries me that what has been presented here so far is only a partial view of the Acapulco case. Any death is tragic. In the case of the youth who died in Acapulco, an autopsy performed in Canada, the full results of which the parents have not been prepared to release to the press or public (and which, I quickly add, they are entirely in their rights to withhold), found that the injuries on his body were entirely consistent with a traffic accident. Is the Canadian coroner not to be believed? Or is there some suggestion that Mexican authorities somehow influenced the Canadian coroner?

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Jan 20, 2007, 6:25 PM

Post #6 of 41 (2415 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] A Death on the Carretera

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Anyone have any info on the results of the American that was murdered on Baja some months ago ??
Getting older and still not down here.

Bubba

Jan 20, 2007, 7:02 PM

Post #7 of 41 (2405 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] A Death on the Carretera

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Good point Tony.

Brian

Jan 20, 2007, 7:13 PM

Post #8 of 41 (2398 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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Re: the Acapulco case, it seems that there are a lot of unanswered questions and inconsistencies that the Mexican authorities have not answered or investigated. It is possible, for instance, that given there were witnesses to the victim's being beaten outside the nightclub, that perhaps he had been pushed or chased into the path of a passing automobile. Also, the victim's companion stated that their hotel room was ransacked and personal possessions were stolen following the incident. I think the family is calling on the Canadian government to put pressure on Mexico to ascertain whether a crime other than hit and run was committed and, if so, that the criminals be brought to justice.

Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Jan 20, 2007, 7:37 PM)

Ed and Fran

Jan 20, 2007, 7:46 PM

Post #9 of 41 (2376 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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Mexico has its warts but I disagree that one must come to accept them. The average Mexican doesn't, why should visitors and expats?

I guess in part this depends on what one is viewing as the "average mexican". I would propose (based only on my years of living down here and observing my extended family) that what I perceive as the "average Mexican" definitely does accept the system with all its known faults (even though he may complain about it to friends and family). I don't see anyone I know actively struggling to change the system. They're spending their energy learning to work within the system.

Obviously your view on things is different.

Regards

Ed

esperanza

Jan 20, 2007, 7:48 PM

Post #10 of 41 (2373 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] A Death on the Carretera

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I agree with Ed.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Brian

Jan 20, 2007, 8:11 PM

Post #11 of 41 (2359 views)

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Re: [esperanza] A Death on the Carretera

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I agree with Ed.

esperanza, have you lost all touch with your Baja roots? Just a couple of month's ago, there was a big march against crime which was covered extensively in the press. Here's one article that, I think, supports my belief that the "average" Mexican is fed up and ain't gonna take it any more:

Anti-crime marchers take to Baja cities' streets

Tijuana is latest stop on journey to MexicaliBy Anna Cearley
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
October 30, 2006

LAURA EMBRY / Union-TribunePeople carried signs and white balloons at the bullring in Tijuana yesterday to protest kidnappings, killings and other crimes plaguing Baja California.TIJUANA – A march through Baja California to bring attention to the region's crime problems picked up steam in Tijuana yesterday when thousands of people joined the walk.
Wearing white T-shirts and holding white balloons, the group cut a long swath through the border city's streets, stopping in front of mostly empty government buildings to hold brief rallies.
Celia Buenrostro, 63, strapped her feet into good walking shoes for the march. Buenrostro said she has never been the victim of a violent crime but has known four people who have been kidnapped.
“It hurts me to know our city is in the hands of the criminals,” she said. “I've always lived in the downtown area, and now I'm afraid. The son of a friend was kidnapped, and they paid the ransom, but he ended up being sent back dead, wrapped in a blanket.”
The 16-day march, organized by members of Baja California's citizens advisory committee on public security issues, started in the Valley of San Quintin, about five hours south of the U.S.-Mexico border. It will conclude Nov. 4 in the state capitol of Mexicali.
Mexican media covering the march estimated between 10 and 50 people showed up at stops through rural communities leading up to Tijuana. Those numbers quickly grew yesterday in Tijuana, a city of about 1.4 million. Police estimated there were at least 2,000 marchers; organizers said up to 9,000 joined in.
The march's emphasis wasn't on drug-related violence, but that is what has plagued Tijuana recently. September has been the city's most violent month this year. Many believe a significant number of the 44 killings were drug-related because they come on the heels of the arrest of suspected kingpin Francisco Javier Arellano Felix. In recent years, the region also has seen an upswing in kidnappings, some of which have been committed by members of drug groups.
Yesterday's event was billed as a chance to reflect on the victims of crime, and it became cathartic as participants shared their experiences with others.
Waving SOS signs, the crowd cheered as speaker Sara Elena Ruiz Meza was introduced. Ruiz's 15-year-old daughter died after she was pushed from a car with her hands bound and struck by oncoming traffic in Tijuana. Ruiz and her family have asserted that state investigators didn't act fast enough last year to arrest a leading suspect. The crime remains unsolved.
“Here in Baja California, all the good people reject the violence that the authorities have allowed to grow,” said Ruiz, dressed in a flowing white peasant-style dress.
She ended her speech by recognizing that some police are honest and some have been gunned down.
Relatives of Teresa Sanchez Gonzalez, 50, a psychologist strangled in her office three years ago, carried a banner that included her photo. The killer was sentenced to up to 42 years in prison, they said, but they were marching in solidarity with other victims whose crimes haven't been solved.
“There are thousands of people who are affected by crime, and we feel very sad for them because so many people are killed and kidnapped,” said Alma Sanchez, 69, a sister of Teresa Sanchez Gonzalez. She said her sister had been killed by someone in desperate search of money for drugs.
Cristina Hodoyan stood quietly on the sidelines. She is the mother of Alejandro and Alfredo Hodoyan, who were linked by U.S. authorities to the region's main drug cartel. Alfredo was imprisoned, and Alejandro remains missing after being snatched from Tijuana's streets nine years ago.
Her sons' story has come to symbolize the infiltration of the region's most powerful drug group, the Arellanos, into Tijuana's upper-middle-class society, and the tragedy of wasted human potential.
“It's very complicated, all of this,” Cristina Hodoyan said.
March organizers said the only public figure they recognized during the first four stops of the march through Tijuana was Luis Javier Algorri Franco, the city's secretary of public security.
Algorri held his young daughter's hand as they dropped by one short segment of the march. He peered at a transparent coffin displayed at each of the stops that included newspaper clippings about crimes and items associated with violent crimes, such as a knife and a ski mask.
Algorri said the march could have a positive outcome if “the citizens wake up and participate actively” in denouncing crime. But handmade signs held by some marchers reflected a lack of confidence in police. “Corrupt Police Go to Jail,” one said.
As Algorri left the crowd, the other marchers continued on. They left in their wake a trail of white balloons that had escaped their grasp and drifted gracefully into the air.

sfmacaws

Jan 20, 2007, 8:15 PM

Post #12 of 41 (2357 views)

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Re: [esperanza] A Death on the Carretera

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In my old job, we had this saying " blame must be attached". It related to the need in the north for everything to be tidied up and for there to be a decision somewhere along the line that XX was responsible. Whether there were repercussions to XX or not, and whether XX truly was responsible or not, blame must be attached.

I don't see that need for blame to be attached down here, or the need to finalize the responsibility. Loose ends are not unusual and they don't inspire the need to 'tidy it up' that they do NOB. Perhaps it is the english colonial influence vs the spanish?

It sounds like the Acapulco case has a lot of loose ends and that finding someone to attach the blame to is probably not possible and is for sure not going to happen. That can make us NOB types really crazy especially if it involves someone we know or love. Establishing blame doesn't change the outcome and doesn't make it better but in our culture it brings a closure that we seem to need.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

sfmacaws

Jan 20, 2007, 8:19 PM

Post #13 of 41 (2352 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] A Death on the Carretera

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I seem to have posted the above at the same time as Brian's post and it is not meant as a comment on his post.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

esperanza

Jan 20, 2007, 8:25 PM

Post #14 of 41 (2349 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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Baja roots? I'll have to think about that one!

And not struggling against the system, IMHO, isn't about narcotraficantes and other anarchistic criminal rule. For me, it's more about not struggling against bureaucrats and bureaucracies, not getting bent out of shape when things don't move as quickly as some people from NOB might like them to, not, as sfmacaws says, about laying blame.

Serious crime and its repercussions are another matter entirely.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

raferguson

Jan 20, 2007, 9:04 PM

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Re: [sfmacaws] A Death on the Carretera

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The flip side of not feeling a need to blame anyone for a bad thing that happens is what is called "impunidad", or impunity. It means that rich people, police, politicians, and ordinary citizens can commit crimes (or be victims of crimes), without anyone ever being punished.

As recently as 19 Janaury, the president of Mexico declared that there will be no impunity for anyone. (Felipe Calderón Hinojosa, anunció hoy que en su Gobierno "no habrá impunidad para nadie".) Even Lopez Obrador speaks against impunity. Son los que quieren perpetuar la corrupción, el influyentismo y la impunidad, que son sus señas de identidad.

As far as I know, "impunidad" is something that politicians rail against, but most don't seem to do much about it. "Impunidad" is part of the problems that Mexico has with crime and corruption. It is also related to the "rule of law", which many countries seem to have trouble with. The word is also used with respect to the killings of women in Ciudad Juarez.

So I do not share the view that "blame must be attached" is a bad idea, or that if Mexicans don't see the world that way it is OK. If there is no need to attach blame, if that is the prevailing culture, then criminality has a green light to run rampant.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Bubba

Jan 20, 2007, 10:56 PM

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Re: [raferguson] A Death on the Carretera

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As the OP of this thread I must restate my original point which is that you, as the guest in a foreign culture, must adapt to the ways of that culture for the sake of your own survival and if you don´t then the harm that comes to you is the end game. If you are lying there in the street with the life crushed out of you it really doesn´t matter what happens after that now does it?

A couple of months ago, as I, a property owner and responsible citizen of San Cristobal de Las Casas, was driving to Larrainza through the indigenous community of Chamula a few kilometers outside of San Cristobal, an elderly Chamula borracho stepped out from behind a shed and nearly lost his balance which, had he done so, would have resulted in my having run over and, perhaps, seriously harming him even though I was driving slowly and with the utmost caution. Had that happened I would have been subject to Chamula indigenous laws unfamiliar to me. Plain and simply, I was on my own.

In 1969, I and others hired a car to take us from Kampala to Murchison Falls National Park in pre-Idi Amin Uganda. It was a terrifying ride as our African driver raced through villages at full speed - villagers and chickens and goats be damned - and, should that driver have killed a child in one of those villages, villagers would have doused us with gasoline and burned us alive.

If you are run over in Ajijic or Chicago you are still in the body bag. Your prospects are not brightened by someone´s later stint in the pen.

What I have learned down here is this. If there is a possibility that a driver will run a traffic light, pass on a hill or curve or run down a pedestrian, then assume that that is what will happen. Come to think of it, that sounds like San Francisco to me.

My father was an independent insurance agent in South Alabama for many years and one of his favorite stories was of an ole boy who turned left into his driveway on some farm road right into the path of a passing car which ran into him. At the trial, the judge asked him, "Jimmy John, how come you didn´t give a signal when you made a left turn into your driveway?" Jimmy John responded, "Your honor, everybody in Crenshaw County knows I live there. Why should I need to give a signal?" Jimmy John never spent a day in jail nordid he pay a dime as a result of that lawsuit . I suppose the other driver was a yankee (read gringo).

You remember that story if you want to survive in Mexico.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 20, 2007, 11:06 PM)

Brian

Jan 21, 2007, 7:20 AM

Post #17 of 41 (2287 views)

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Re: [esperanza] A Death on the Carretera

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Baja roots? I'll have to think about that one!

My mind must be slipping. I thought that at one time you had talked about having lived or had relatives in Tijuana . That's where I lived for several years before moving to SMA. Anyone who has spent any amount of time in that area has the benefit of seeing a side of the Mexican experience unlike folks who have only lived in the interior of the Republic. My apology again for confusing you with someone else.

saludos
Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Jan 21, 2007, 7:45 AM)

esperanza

Jan 21, 2007, 9:01 AM

Post #18 of 41 (2255 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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No, no, Brian, you didn't confuse me with someone else...I did live for several years in Tijuana. But my life there was hardly typical and although I spent a lot of time in jail*, my experience of Tijuana, 26 years ago, was very different from the Tijuana of today.

*I was a social worker in the then-infamous Tijuana city jail, La Ocho.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

johanson

Jan 21, 2007, 11:36 AM

Post #19 of 41 (2225 views)

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Re: [esperanza] A Death on the Carretera

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When I drove through the intersection next to Bruno's, the signal light was not properly working. When the light should have been green, no light was burning. I have no idea whether the red light works or not.

bournemouth

Jan 21, 2007, 12:10 PM

Post #20 of 41 (2215 views)

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Re: [johanson] A Death on the Carretera

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It's been like that for some time - the red light does work. There is also a problem with the light at Lloyds.

NEOhio1

Jan 21, 2007, 7:48 PM

Post #21 of 41 (2137 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] A Death on the Carretera

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Oh, pleeeeeze, if it isn't red its green, if it isn't green its red. Yellow is a twinkle in your eye and not worth considering. Mis- or mal-functioning lights is no reason, but it is an excuse. It is a shame either way, but I can tell you that I would be the first to jaywalk during the day but not at night because the darkness is really very dark.

tony

Jan 21, 2007, 8:19 PM

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera- Simpler Explanation??

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Hello,
Could there be a simpler explanation of all this hit and run, hide, come back and
nothing happens to you??

Maybe cars have the right of way in Mexico? Maybe one has to prove that someone
was obviously negligent when driving in order to pin a death on them? It is easy to
make assumptions - especially when one doesn't know the law?

I think NOB the laws encourage people to step in front of cars because pedestrians
"know" they have the right of way. A very stupid practice! I remember I stepped
in front of an oncoming car in Jamaica, a Jamaican pulled me aside and said "here in Jamaica mon, you don't step in front of cars unless you want to die mon!

tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

johanson

Jan 21, 2007, 9:03 PM

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Re: [NEOhio1] A Death on the Carretera

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NEOhio1, you wrote, "Oh, pleeeeeze, if it isn't red its green, if it isn't green its red." And I respond, not really

There are I think 5 lights in Ajijic along the main road through town. Remember that the light at or near Bruno's where apparently the accident took place, is not in the center of the street like most lights are, but on a post on the sidewalk, and unlike most lights that are in the middle of the street that get your attention, this one is harder to notice, especially if you are from out of town and when driving toward it there is no green light.

I am suggesting that a higher % of those driving through this intersection who are not familiar with town, would not notice a red light suddenly appearing when there was no green light before-hand because the light is not properly positioned.

That said, I regularly use a signal light just one or two lights to the west of the accident that is properly positioned and is easy to see. Yet even though the signal light is easy to see, when the light turns green for me on my cross street, about one time in 15, a bicycle rider will run said light, and about 1 time in 60 a bus will run said light. In order to survive, I have learned to look both ways before entering an intersection even though I have a green light.

ignacio

Jan 21, 2007, 9:42 PM

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I was told by people coming back from Okinawa and other places in Japan, that if you are in a taxi, and that cab driver gets in an accident, you better get out of that cab, and run like h*ll.... apparently over there, you will be responsible for the accident, since that cab driver went there at your request and you having hired it have all responsibility.

Here in Mexico most poor people that get in accidents run and hide, because they wll have no money to defend themselves against the system, and they are the ones always found at fault.

I bet you have never seen a well dressed Mexican 'gentlemen' taken up and put away by police, or traffic cops after an accident.... what happens is that these gentlemen take charge of the situation, tell the cop what to do, and slip a few (or a lot) of pesos to them for their 'refresco'. This guys are never at fault, so poor people always run.

MargoMac

Jan 22, 2007, 4:25 AM

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Re: [ignacio] A Death on the Carretera

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Interesting. This seems to be true in other countries too. I saw it happen in South Korea and it happened to me in Italy. We had hired a cab to take us to a particular scenic spot and we were not even in the car when another auto hit the cab. The driver blamed me, said I was responsible. Thinking the cab driver must be crazy, I ignored him. That night I thought the issue was finished. But it was not. Early morning the day after the accident he was patiently and quietly waiting for me in the hotel lobby. When I appeared, he leaped out of his chair and demanded I pay him. I was leaving the country at that time. He followed me through the lobby and when I got onto the tour bus, he was still screaming at me. He stood by the bus shaking his fist and screaming the entire time.

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