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Overstaying tourist visa




geewiz

Nov 15, 2012, 7:35 AM

Views: 17825

    

Overstaying tourist visa

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For years we have come to Mexico for the whole winter with a 180 day visa. This year we would like to fly back a couple of weeks beyond our standard 6 months. Does anyone have personal experience or real data of the consequences of overstaying 180 days?
Thanks.



Axixic


Nov 15, 2012, 8:00 AM

Views: 17811

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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As long as you don't get into any trouble who will know you overstayed it? All they can do is kick you out of the country and you are leaving anyway.



chicois8

Nov 15, 2012, 8:29 AM

Views: 17800

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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It used to be when flying you will have to show your FMM to a customs agent and the FMM is usually collected by the airline ticket agent, if your FMM is past due or "lost" you will have to pay about $45.00 USD for a replacement before you can board the plane...
Rincon de Guayabitos,Nayarit
San Mateo, California



chinagringo


Nov 15, 2012, 8:35 AM

Views: 17796

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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Here you have been obsessing about Mexico changing the rules/regs but are now advocating breaking the laws. Did you include such in all of your emails to the press, etc?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM




morgaine7


Nov 15, 2012, 8:42 AM

Views: 17791

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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You should probably ask people who fly out of whatever airport you'll be using. At La Paz and Los Cabos airports, immigration status must be sorted out before the airline will issue a boarding pass.

Kate



Yacatecuhtli


Nov 15, 2012, 8:48 AM

Views: 17788

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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Geewiz have you thought about contacting INM to have it extended ?


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !



Rolly


Nov 15, 2012, 8:56 AM

Views: 17782

    

Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Overstaying tourist visa

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An FMM cannot be extend. There is an exception if you cannot travel because of a health issue such as being in the hospital,

Rolly Pirate



La Isla


Nov 15, 2012, 10:28 AM

Views: 17764

    

Re: [Rolly] Overstaying tourist visa

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Back when FMMs were FMTs, I had a couple of them extended a few days by going to INM and asking for extensions. MY reason was I wanted to stay a few days longer, no health issues were involved.



Axixic


Nov 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

Views: 17761

    

Re: [chinagringo] Overstaying tourist visa

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You don't live here and you are not faced with the problems the new rules are causing, yet you pop up and criticize and try to pick fights. Why don't you go uncover what makes you so unhappy and work on that instead of trying to fight with people on a web board?

I doubt people overstaying an FMM for a couple of days will face any problems and it is hardly a major law to violate.



Yacatecuhtli


Nov 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

Views: 17756

    

Re: [La Isla] Overstaying tourist visa

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Yes I knew people that had 180 permits extended as well, that is why I mentioned it but I do not remember the details (when, what where how) , but I do know that a hospital visit was not involved.....

Perhaps there is no harm in asking, but that's up to the OP.........


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !



geewiz

Nov 15, 2012, 11:30 AM

Views: 17748

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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Thanks for the input.
It would simplify our life this winter if we didn't have to go through the "FM3" application.
I understand we can also go to a nearby border (Belize - 3 hours), exit, and re-enter with another 180 days.



YucaLandia


Nov 15, 2012, 3:58 PM

Views: 17710

    

Re: [chinagringo] Overstaying tourist visa

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In a twist of the Golden Rule, (do unto others, what you would want done to you): Is intentionally breaking Mexican laws, any different from similarly breaking US and Canadian laws? Do we really want illegal aliens, regardless of which side of the border you live?

Maybe, if the OP thinks it is a good thing for illegal aliens to ignore US/Canadian laws, then it would be consistent to plan to intentionally ignore Mexican law?

A rational consequence of advocating these positions is that the Mexican Government will begin cracking down on cheaters, and they will put even more stringent requirements in place, and harsher penalties - which is what has reportedly happened in the new INM immigration rules.

INM officials are reported to have said that there has been too much past cheating by expats living in Mexico on work and $$ issues, so, they "had to raise the Residente Temporal income limit" by a large amount on all expats, to try to counter the effects of the cheaters. Which is a way of saying the rest of us often ultimately pay for the current indiscretions of a few people.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



cbviajero

Nov 15, 2012, 5:19 PM

Views: 17688

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
I

INM officials are reported to have said that there has been too much past cheating by expats living in Mexico on work and $$ issues, so, they "had to raise the Residente Temporal income limit" by a large amount on all expats, to try to counter the effects of the cheaters. Which is a way of saying the rest of us often ultimately pay for the current indiscretions of a few people.

I find that difficult to believe.



chinagringo


Nov 15, 2012, 5:24 PM

Views: 17686

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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Steve:

Why is it necessary to attempt to rationalize by comparing with the breaking of US or Canadian laws? This is strictly a Mexico and its relationship with foreigners issue! Now I won't say that I haven't considered that there may be some retaliation built into the new rules either for the way Mexican citizens are treated NOB or more likely for the abuses to the system with foreigners throwing money around to get their way. I don't know if you remember or not when about a year or two back, the Mexican Government announced that the largest group of illegals in Mexico were from the United States?

Through many years of following this and numerous other forums, I have so often read way too many rationalizations and suggestions that it is OK to break, bend or otherwise manipulate the rules, regs and laws of Mexico. When I see people recommending such behavior, I have to ask myself: "would they be doing the same in their home country?"
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM




morgaine7


Nov 15, 2012, 5:26 PM

Views: 17685

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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Quote
INM officials are reported to have said that there has been too much past cheating by expats living in Mexico on work and $$ issues, so, they "had to raise the Residente Temporal income limit" by a large amount on all expats, to try to counter the effects of the cheaters.

That is extremely disturbing, particularly if North Americans are said to be among the "cheaters".

Kate



YucaLandia


Nov 15, 2012, 6:13 PM

Views: 17670

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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The first hand report came in writing to us, from an old-hand expat getting their new INM permit today, and yes, the INM official specifically called out Canadians and Americans as the cheaters.

And since the rest of us often do pay the price for the mal-actions of other expats and visitors from NOB, then it seems reasonable to say that we would like to be treated the way that the people considering breaking the rules would like to be treated back home. I'm not grumpy or upset over these things, just realistic.

It's better to flick a problem on the nose, while it is still small, than try to later get the whole camel out of our community tent.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



mcm

Nov 16, 2012, 1:07 PM

Views: 17598

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
The first hand report came in writing to us, from an old-hand expat getting their new INM permit today, and yes, the INM official specifically called out Canadians and Americans as the cheaters.

Let's see: a ''first hand report'' told to the poster by someone who was told something by an INM official. Sounds like third hand to me.
Really, something told to someone in one office might or might not have anything to do with the rationale for a major change in immigrations rules.



bronco

Nov 16, 2012, 3:27 PM

Views: 17577

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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agree 100%. cheenagringo dosnt live here, but has opinions about everything under the sun. he should restrict his posts to "costco". i doute most expats w/fm3s are cheaters, proberly very few. i fail to see how a 6 month visa helps mexico. they can get $3000 pesos per person for a renewal (thats 5 yrs 15,000 plus pesos), the persons travel money will be spent here. there is something "else" going on, dont believe the govts story. cheenagringo should stay out of this.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 16, 2012, 4:40 PM)



Axixic


Nov 16, 2012, 3:40 PM

Views: 17575

    

Re: [mcm] Overstaying tourist visa

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I think it is almost impossible for many foreigners to be cheating. We stand out. It's not we are easy to hide. Mexico has a right and should care if someone is here illegally and costing Mexico money but that is also impossible in Mexico. What services can an illegal receive from Mexico like an illegal can receive in the U.S.?

An illegal in the U.S. can check into a hospital, stay 6 months, leave without paying a dime and not get turned in. That is not possible in Mexico.

So if a Northerner is here illegally that person is not a burden on Mexico and must have some means of support.

Perhaps Mexicans are complaining about illegals coming over the Southern border not the Northern border.

The new rules were not thought through. I doubt the rules are meant to punish. They are just ignorant of who we are and our resources.



chinagringo


Nov 16, 2012, 4:02 PM

Views: 17568

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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Well I guess it is time for me to hang my head in shame? After all the opinions voiced by two certainly trumps fact!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM




bronco

Nov 16, 2012, 5:00 PM

Views: 17554

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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yes, an illegal mexican get free hospital care in the us & then some........! as for the new rules applying to migrant workers from panama, thats absurd. they never had the old minimal requirements. people come here in a pickup truck are looking for some construction work while they pass through, then make their way to the US border. it is ludaris to say that raising monthly income from $1200 to $1900 relates to central america. as for "cheating"??? cheating on WHAT??? you show a bank statement &/or income. you pay TAXES! (fees) you are not a guest, you are a customer. as for "working under the table", what do they mean? teaching a yoga class? people will charge for things if they choose too, even if they make $700usd more per month. so that exuse dosnt fly. immigration was making it "easier" (for a while), even no proof except after 4 yrs. why the turn-a round? mexico is the last country on earth to do a moral sermon. & cheenringo, what makes you so self rightious? tell us old wise one, mr. funky on the road.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 16, 2012, 5:06 PM)



chinagringo


Nov 16, 2012, 5:29 PM

Views: 17545

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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Quality of the compsition speaks for itself and not even worth the effort to comment. Your time might be better spent earning a GED?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM




Axixic


Nov 17, 2012, 4:48 AM

Views: 17512

    

Re: [chinagringo] Overstaying tourist visa

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Not everyone on this board speaks and writes Native English.

Mark Twain had terrible writing skills, hated punctuation, had run on sentences, ignored most rules of writing and a proof reader was needed to correct his mistakes but he had brilliant ideas.

Too bad you can't ever contribute anything positive.



Axixic


Nov 17, 2012, 4:50 AM

Views: 17511

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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An article about U.S. and Canadian "illegals" in Mexico:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...adio-and-tv-17098719


(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 17, 2012, 6:42 AM)



YucaLandia


Nov 17, 2012, 7:01 AM

Views: 17495

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
agree 100%. ... i doute most expats w/fm3s are cheaters, proberly very few. i fail to see how a 6 month visa helps mexico. they can get $3000 pesos per person for a renewal (thats 5 yrs 15,000 plus pesos), the persons travel money will be spent here. there is something "else" going on, dont believe the govts story. cheenagringo should stay out of this.


I did not say that most expat FM3 holders are cheaters, I actually said that the actions of a few gringos often cause problems later for the rest of us. Consider: If you live around popular gringo areas, and know FM3 snowbirds who own homes, (especially in beach areas), it's common to hear from them that they rent their homes to other gringos while they are back NOB. In my limited 27 years of visiting and living in Yucatan, I've found stories from snow-bird gringos talking about their remodeled homes and rental income is very common.

If you ask these gringos how difficult it is to report that income to Hacienda, many reply that they have no problem with that: they simply do not report the rental income. I know at least 15 expat couples who rent their homes part-time, and do not report the income and do not pay taxes.

Consider expats who live in Mexico, either full or part-time. How many of them have cleaning ladies, gardeners, painters, mozos, et al?

Will the critics and doubters please tell us their honest estimates of how many (what %) of expats report their pay to household help to the Mex. Gob.? How many expats hire construction workers to do painting etc, tell them how to do the job, tell when they should show up for work, and give instructions to the painters et al during the job? All of these expats owe taxes to the Mex. Gob. on the $$ paid to workers that they direct on how to do the job and what aspect of the job to do next. How many of these expats pay the annual payments to the Mexican worker/social security dept. for all these workers? I would guess that less than 50% of expats pay to provide health care and (small) retirement benefits for their household help, painters, mozos et al? I know at least 20 expat couples who do not pay their taxes on this stuff.

How many expats personally do small jobs, little projects, or other work like repairing appliances or computers, sell arts and crafts, bake specialty breads, etc., and take cash payments without reporting them to el Gob.? I personally know at least 20 expats who do this.

The non-payment of taxes on rental income, the non-payment of taxes for payments to household or garden help and construction workers, and the non-payment of taxes on their personal miscellaneous income all adds up to significant total $$$ of cheating across all of Mexico.

Since these expats talk openly about their rentals, who is good household help, who paints well, or their latest arts and crafts or project, at regular gringo gatherings in restaurants, parties that include Mexican friends, and talk regularly with their Mexican neighbors, then Mexicans who hang out with expats, clearly know that many expats do not pay all their taxes.

Moving back to the issues of intentionally breaking rules, like planning to overstay a tourist permit:
All of these types of regular tax-dodging by expats makes it reasonable to expect that INM officials realize that many expats are not paying the taxes they owe, especially in areas popular with gringos.

I have not been privy to INM jefe meetings in DF on this issue, but having lived-with and worked-with govt. regulatory officials in the US for 4 decades, I'd say that this type of reasoning by Govt. jefes is common on both sides of the border.

This all makes the report believable that tax cheating by Canadians and Americans was one cause for INM to raise the income requirements for INM residency cards. Taken as a whole, these things also point to the benefits of encouraging tourists, visitors, snowbirds, and expats living here to all follow Mexico's laws and rules - since the rest of us do sometimes pay the consequences for the bad behaviors of the few.

I'm not scolding, I just don't like being gigged for something that other people did.

This stuff is pure self-interest. I just don't like it when a few people think it is OK to pee in the community pool, and I think it is worth taking some flack for asking people:
Please don't pee in our pool.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



YucaLandia


Nov 17, 2012, 7:05 AM

Views: 6436

    

Re: [mcm] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To

In Reply To
The first hand report came in writing to us, from an old-hand expat getting their new INM permit today, and yes, the INM official specifically called out Canadians and Americans as the cheaters.

Let's see: a ''first hand report'' told to the poster by someone who was told something by an INM official. Sounds like third hand to me.
Really, something told to someone in one office might or might not have anything to do with the rationale for a major change in immigrations rules.


I did not say that I was making a first hand report.

Are "Second-hand" reports inherently inaccurate?
Clearly, when a reporter interviews a witness, the reporter then produces a 2'nd person report. Are all newspaper reports suspect, even when the witness has a history of accurately and thoroughly describing what they were told? Is the court reporting of witness accounts also generally suspect? Sure, we prefer first hand reports from reliable witnesses, but second and third hand reports can also be valuable - and necessary.

Consider: When a teacher teaches about something that they have not personally done or personally investigated, things they read in a book or were taught in University, do we automatically doubt that teacher? If so, then ALL history must be doubted. History teachers and history books are then somehow wholly unreliable, because history text authors certainly did not see or experience anything from before their lives. Almost all high school Physics and Biology should also not be trusted, because teachers have not done even the classic experiments, let alone work that requires expensive equipment like electron microscopes.

Under the critic's proposed standards, we shouldn't believe the formulae about gravity or electricity, because most have not precisely measured the falling rates of dropped objects nor the charge of an electron.

Advice from friends and family about places with reputations for really good food should not be trusted, unless they tasted every item?

What about all the things we learned from Mom and Dad?
Yet more rubbish?

Instead, I think most of us rely on the reporting of others for much of what we know.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Nov 17, 2012, 7:50 AM)



Axixic


Nov 17, 2012, 7:36 AM

Views: 6430

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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Raising the income requirements on all of us is their way of punishing the ones who violate Mexican law by not paying their taxes?

Most people with FM3s are not property owners except for maybe some Canadians who are here for 6 months.

First one must have permission to earn income from INM to be able to rent property. Second, he must get permission from Hacienda to rent and that is time consuming and difficult. Most Mexican landlords don't pay the taxes on rental income.

Hacienda can crack down on cheaters anytime it wants. It can peruse the rental ads and call or visit those landlords, visit real estate companies that rent properties and ask to see their papers proving they have permission to rent the property and if the taxes are paid.

The local unions and IMSS file against employers who do not pay taxes for their employees. That is up to the employee and as I understand it, fairly easy to collect.

I think raising the income requirements is typical bureaucratic stupidity. They are clueless about how much it takes to live in Mexico (our standards), they are clueless about how much most Northerners actually have or receive, and they don't understand how this will injure Mexico.

If they have an attitude about foreigners, then they shouldn't be in their positions.

Almost all of us are good for Mexico. We donate our time and money to help the less fortunate, keep thousands employed, and we pay our help much more than their fellow Mexicans pay. Because I am disabled, I try not to hire anyone to help me because I need the exercise and it is too easy to get lazy, but when I do hire, I pay 2-3 times more per hour than what Mexican employers pay for the same work.

People in the Lake Chapala area get chastised all the time for overpaying but our consciences would bother us to pay what the locals pay. We also help their kids with uniforms, books and medical care. We are known to be easy touches.

If the bureaucrats are angry and think foreigners are getting away without paying taxes, then they should enforce their tax laws and not punish those who have not violated the law.

This type of reasoning, to punish those who are not guilty, causes a lack of respect for Mexicans and makes people that they are too lazy or too stupid to punish the right people.

Lumping everyone into one category is discrimination.



bronco

Nov 17, 2012, 7:48 AM

Views: 6425

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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how is raising the minimum income from $1200 to $1900 going to bring in tax payments for gringo rentals? people rent their homes no matter how much income they have, or how much their home is worth. how is that extra $700 going to stop someone from baking bread & selling it? people who sell services will contine to sell. most mexicans work under the table anyway, the govt knows this. many mexicans who hire workers do NOT pay into the imss. or retirement. i know doctors (who own assisted living facilities), store owners, large households, the help does not get those benefits. still makes no sence. AXIXIC: i wrote this before i saw your response.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 17, 2012, 7:54 AM)



bronco

Nov 17, 2012, 8:27 AM

Views: 6410

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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immigration workers do not know why the law was passed, they are guessing. the attornies do not know why it was passed either, they are guessing it is a political fight between the old president & the new one. AXIXIC: as for expats doing charity work, i dont think the goverment cares. its great to pay your workers well & help out. other than that, n. americans do not understand the culture, most of the time they do more harm than good. they make fools of themselves, & generally are disrepected. there should be another thread about this issue. (it has little to do w/immigrayion laws).



YucaLandia


Nov 17, 2012, 8:40 AM

Views: 6402

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
Raising the income requirements on all of us is their way of punishing the ones who violate Mexican law by not paying their taxes?

Most people with FM3s are not property owners except for maybe some Canadians who are here for 6 months.

First one must have permission to earn income from INM to be able to rent property. Second, he must get permission from Hacienda to rent and that is time consuming and difficult. Most Mexican landlords don't pay the taxes on rental income.

Hacienda can crack down on cheaters anytime it wants. It can peruse the rental ads and call or visit those landlords, visit real estate companies that rent properties and ask to see their papers proving they have permission to rent the property and if the taxes are paid.

The local unions and IMSS file against employers who do not pay taxes for their employees. That is up to the employee and as I understand it, fairly easy to collect.

I think raising the income requirements is typical bureaucratic stupidity. They are clueless about how much it takes to live in Mexico (our standards), they are clueless about how much most Northerners actually have or receive, and they don't understand how this will injure Mexico.

If they have an attitude about foreigners, then they shouldn't be in their positions.

...
If the bureaucrats are angry and think foreigners are getting away without paying taxes, then they should enforce their tax laws and not punish those who have not violated the law.

This type of reasoning, to punish those who are not guilty, causes a lack of respect for Mexicans and makes people that they are too lazy or too stupid to punish the right people.

Lumping everyone into one category is discrimination.


First one must have permission to earn income from INM to be able to rent property.
Second, he must get permission from Hacienda to rent

These claims simply are not true. Many many people can and do rent their properties without any Mex. Gob. approvals.

Hacienda can crack down on cheaters anytime it wants.
This is very true, but it does not fit common reality. In 7 years of reading expat forum posts, and first hand accounts from 100's of gringos, Hacienda has simply not enforced this rule. When the rubber-meets-the-road, do we go with reality, or do we lean on theory and hypotheticals of "what might happen"?


That is up to the employee and as I understand it...
This is like blaming victims of a tragedy. The responsibility for paying taxes owed falls directly on the employer.
Do we expect US and Canadian employers to cheat their employees willy-nilly and scoff at labor laws? or do we expect the employers to do their best to follow the law, and that Government should enforce the laws?

Is it really all "up to the employee" ?
It's really not an honest argument to automatically try to shift the ownership of the problem to the workers.


They are clueless about how much it takes to live in Mexico (our standards), and later:
they are too lazy or too stupid to punish the right people.
So, Government Officials are "clueless" about costs of living in Mexico? Just what else are they "clueless" about?

Consider proclamations that Government Officials are too lazy ... too stupid ... Statements like this certainly earn great respect from Mexicans and Govt. officials, who read these forums to find out what Canadians & Americans really think. It's troubling that Mexconnect posters would boldly make such claims.

Then consider: Just how are "our standards " so different?
These declarations all sound pretty harsh and judgmental - and feed some pretty ugly stereotypes.

Saying that Mexicans have and live by lower standards that Americans and Canadians seems offensive to any Mexican readers who might have a computer and internet access.
"Oh wait, "they" do have computers, and "some of them" live in decent homes, and have some decent food."

The Ugly American really does exist, especially by keeping repulsive attitudes and ideas like these alive.

This is another example where a few people think it is fine to pee in the community pool, were the rest of us may pay a price for such personal expressions and actions by the few.

Really, not all Mexicans are campesinos or peons. Most live very nice lives, ... without our pity or charity.


If they have an attitude about foreigners, then they shouldn't be in their positions.
Do Mexconnect readers know that the Mexican Constitution strictly prohibits the interference of foreigners into Mexican Government affairs? Also realize that past foreigners who have made a series of these kinds of statements in public have found themselves deported?

Who are we to say who should be hired by the Mexican Government?
Since hiring of Gob. workers is a part of Mexico's political process, then these sorts of interferences are expressly forbidden by Mexican law and the Mexican Constitution.


If the bureaucrats are angry and think foreigners are getting away without paying taxes, ...
Did anyone actually write that " bureaucrats are angry " ?
Not all Latininos fit some hot-blooded and emotional stereotype. Mexican Government officials are fully capable of calmly analyzing situations. They can and do rationally form conclusions. And they then do implement the resulting rules and laws without getting emotional or angry about things. Not everything is driven by emotions and reactive behaviors.


If the bureaucrats ... think foreigners are getting away without paying taxes, then they should enforce their tax laws and not punish those who have not violated the law.
This idea is spot on ! Excellent proposal !
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



bronco

Nov 17, 2012, 8:43 AM

Views: 6399

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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cheenagringo was basically a glorified office worker. he spent his life looking @ sales receipts & spread sheets. if i need a good typist, proof reader, secretary i will hire him. he is not a thinker, he is a follower, a middleman. i find him pedantic & dull, w/an infantile sense of humor. this topic is about immigration rules, which have little to do w/him, i add busy body to the above opinion.



bronco

Nov 17, 2012, 9:07 AM

Views: 6390

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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looking @ all the information i dont think the new laws were thought through. i recall, around 10 ys ago in SMA, the govt was trying to shut down informal b&bs, &guest houses for tax reasons. (the were not all registered). meanwhile we are all guessing, bottom line is that they did a big bait & switch. raising the monthly income will not bring back 2cents for the govt. they are losing $3000 pesos for each expat who does not renew their fm3. do the math. the lady baking bread will not compensate for that loss, she will still sell the bread even if her home is worth more than $195,000. oviously the govt does not care about the maids, the small business owners. looks like they care only for themselves, & disregard mexicans &expats.



mcm

Nov 17, 2012, 9:08 AM

Views: 6389

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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Yucalandia (and anyone else interested in this discussion).
My comment about the ''first hand'' report was to point out that the statements of one official or staff member at one INM office is probably not going to reflect the rationale behind the change in regulations (but, thanks for the lecture on information networks, Yucalandia. Hope it didn't take you too much time!).
The sometimes inaccurate nature of statements by officials to clients is not unique to Mexico, but in my years of living here, I have found that while people in government offices and elsewhere are happy to explain their understanding of the rationale for policies, these explanations may not be correct.
I do follow Mexican politics and government in the national and local papers, and it is my understanding that most laws and subsequent supporting regulations are, to say the least, result of long arduous negotiations -- it's pretty unlikely that they are designed to ''get'' a certain group (which may or may not exist -- lots of anecdotal evidence, which is, by its nature, suspect).

So far, I haven't seen any stories in forums, blogs, etc. about expats with no-inmigrante or inmigrante cards being ''kicked out'' of Mexico, or forced to change to a visitor status. Instead, it seems as though officials are being accommodating. Of course it is early days yet (since the regulation went into effect a week ago), but as of now, it doesn't seem as though there is a reason for panic.



La Isla


Nov 17, 2012, 9:15 AM

Views: 6389

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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Yucalandia, while not condoning the behavior of the expat "tax cheats" you describe in your post, let's not forget that many Mexicans are guilty of the same faults.



Axixic


Nov 17, 2012, 9:55 AM

Views: 6386

    

Re: [YucaLandia] Overstaying tourist visa

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I'm sure your answers make more than just my head spin.

The law is if one earns income (rent money) in Mexico he must have permission from INM.

I don't know why you think that is confusing.

If the person who has permission to earn income in Mexico wants to rent property, he must first get permission from Hacienda and then pay Hacienda. Someone in SMA tried to get permission some time ago and gave up because it was so time consuming and burdensome.

If Mexico doesn't want most of us, we can move.

Sure employers are required to follow the law but like in the U.S. if employees don't make them follow the laws, they won't. That is why there are enforcement agencies.

If this confuses you, think about traffic laws. If there aren't any police officers watching for traffic violators, how many people do you think would always drive the speed limit?

The rest of it is blather and not worth a response but neither was the above because anyone can figure it out, but I did anyway. Since I don't drink I cannot be fortified enough to bother and you took up all the paper anyway.



bronco

Nov 17, 2012, 10:21 AM

Views: 6379

    

Re: [mcm] Overstaying tourist visa

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the law was finalized like on wensday. how can you expect "stories" of expats being kicked out, or what ever. (they havnt gotton to that yet). the law only applies to those who are @ the end of the 5th yr fm3 cycle. those people will either leave, or be illegal here. they may not be able to drive, as it taking chances. no one will apply if they cant meet the requirements. the mex govt hasnt come out directly & addressed the issue of deportation. there have been old folks here for years w/out fm3s, some have expired passports. so far there has not been a raid in assisted living facilities, w/payoffs. then again, this may be a business op.



mazbook1


Nov 17, 2012, 2:36 PM

Views: 6353

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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"If the person who has permission to earn income in Mexico wants to rent property, he must first get permission from Hacienda and then pay Hacienda. Someone in SMA tried to get permission some time ago and gave up because it was so time consuming and burdensome."

That's the most untruthful thing I have seen on this thread. To EARN money in México, you go to Hacienda and get an R.F.C. There is NO CHARGE for this, and it only takes one visit (by appointment here in Mazatlán) unless you don't come in with the required copies of stuff. Then with your newly minted R.F.C., you go to Migración, show them your new R.F.C. and they will tell you just what is necessary to change status from rentista to actividades lucrativas. You pay the fee for this, then bring all the paperwork they want to the office, and voila! you get your new card showing that you are a taxpaying resident of México. It's so simple that anyone can do it without help! Unless, of course you don't speak ANY Spanish, then you will have to have a translator with you. Still dead simple. I understand that the new Residente Permanente status confers this right automatically, but if all you have is Residente Temporal (or worse, Visitante) you do need to go to Migraciíón to get the permission to work and earn money in México, just like you have to go to Migración and get permission to marry in México. Not a big deal. After all this, you just report your earnings to Hacienda, but even Mexicans usually hire an accountant for this. Their fees are very low, and definitely worth every centavo.

One note to all following this thread, Yuculandia is mistaken about one thing. Mexican Law exempts employers of any responsibility for paying taxes (or registering said employee with IMSS) for DOMESTIC WORKERS, i.e., maids, housekeepers, cooks, nannies, etc. (might even include gardeners, but I've never researched that). HOWEVER, if you don't register them with IMSS, you have NO worker's comp insurance, and you still owe the worker for sick leave (which is paid by IMSS to registered employees, and it can be indefinite in time. But for unregistered employees, the employer MUST pay it, regardless of how long a time it is.), vacation and aguinaldo–Xmas bonus–and even the cost of or time off for primary education if they desire. If you DON'T pay these things, there are plenty of lawyers who specialize in this to take you to either the Labor board or to court. BE WARNED!


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Nov 17, 2012, 2:48 PM)



Rolly


Nov 17, 2012, 3:09 PM

Views: 6342

    

Re: [mazbook1] Overstaying tourist visa

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The requirement to seek INM's permission to marry has been dropped.

Rolly Pirate



mazbook1


Nov 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

Views: 6334

    

Re: [Rolly] Overstaying tourist visa

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Thanks for that information about marrying in México, Rolly. When I got married down here it was the biggest (and most costly) pain of the whole process.



Axixic


Nov 17, 2012, 4:25 PM

Views: 6320

    

Re: [mazbook1] Overstaying tourist visa

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It's hardly the most untruthful thing ever posted on this board.

I am not a landlord so I didn't bother to remember the procedure the person in SMA described a few years ago. If I had know I needed to be exact I would have saved it instead of trying to remember it.

Except for getting the steps wrong, the process is still the same, right?

Permission from Hacienda to rent property, pay Hacienda the taxes on the rent when due, get work permission on FM3/2 or whatever?

The person who described it said it was time consuming and too much effort. He wrote that Hacienda examines the property and he had to submit too much to make it worth the trouble, but he did say he did not rent illegally. He decided not to rent the property.



richmx2


Nov 18, 2012, 3:50 PM

Views: 6265

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

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I've read through the entire thread. My income depends largely on foreign retirees, so this important to me. A couple of thoughts.

1. Why ASSUME the new immigration regulations were written for your benefit, and not for the long range ones of the Mexicans? Nations generally do not want aging immigrants who absent sufficient resources, are going to depend on state resources to meet their needs. Mexico's own population is aging, and the demand for social services to the aging is increasing, as are the costs. While the income requirements for the type of visa most are discussing here is higher, Mexico is still one of the few places that issues these types of visas.

2. I take some exception to Yucalandia's description of "a few cheaters". I'd have said "rampant cheating". Those who say there is very little cheating are in denial. Everything from arranging one's bank accounts to appear as if there is sufficient income (people met the LETTER OF THE LAW when it came income requirements for non-working visas under the old regulations...but following the instructions on any number of websites, "how to retire to Mexico" books and retirement advice columnists, they arrange their deposits to make it appear as if they have sufficient income). They hardly were following the SPIRIT OF THE LAW, meant to create an industry serving "active seniors", not one allowing foreigners to aspire to a lifestyle they never had at home (servants and dining out daily), which creates "jobs" but doesn't do much for a sustainable economy and future development.

3. Are you sure those of us who are here as permanent tourists are as welcome as we think? I lived for a while in a part of the U.S., which like parts of Mexico, was receiving an influx of well-heeled outsiders (mostly retirees). "Restoring" older homes and engaging in cultural activities may be fine and dandy, but talk to people who've had to leave their family homes or who can't afford to enjoy their own traditional lifestyle, or find neighbors telling one how to conduct one's life, and worse, find access to the natural areas and ecological wonders of their region cut off by "developers" catering to outsiders who have little or no interest in the local culture, other than as colorful exoticism. Those resentful people can vote here... you can't.

4. The new migration regulations were not written solely for rich-nation "permanent vacationers" but for migrants in general. The regulations are fairly standard ... giving points for those likely to contribute economically and socially, and allowing for those temporary migrants who are passing through (something Mexico has to deal with, that other countries don't) in a more humane and sensible manner.

5. Will this law affect my bottom line? Probably, but whether for good or ill I can't say. I didn't move here to get rich, or maintain some lifestyle, or aspire to some other lifestyle, but to live. Change was gonna happen no matter what, so I'll just have to deal with it.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com



La Isla


Nov 18, 2012, 4:45 PM

Views: 6253

    

Re: [richmx2] Overstaying tourist visa

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I just read richmx2's above post and don't recognize myself from the description he posted of "the permanent tourist", maybe because I still work and don't have a plethora of servants who keep me ensconced in a lifestyle I never enjoyed while living in the States. I like to think I do make contributions to Mexico with the English teaching and other work I do here for reasonable fees and on which I pay taxes. I hope that the spirit of the new laws will allow me to continue to make Mexico my home and not force me into exile back in the States.



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 5:40 PM

Views: 6242

    

Re: [richmx2] Overstaying tourist visa

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the expats who pay into i.m.s.s. usually dont use it much. they may keep it for an accident. most folks continue treatment w/a private dr. as the service is not great. in my area expats were denied the services last year even if they did pay in. most expats dont use the public hospital, thats rare. mexico can withdraw those 2 services if they want. they offered them, but if its not practical they can withdraw them. ok? simple. as for developments, many homes are purchased by mexicans. some gated communties are 50/50. others may have more retirees. they will continue to develope none stop regardless. (as for taxes, yes they should enforce that w/rentals). you are off on all of these matters. there is a bigger reason for this switch& bait, i will hold it for later. the writing was on the walls years ago.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 18, 2012, 5:51 PM)



Axixic


Nov 18, 2012, 6:24 PM

Views: 6228

    

Re: [richmx2] Overstaying tourist visa

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The U.S. has hundreds, maybe thousands, of areas where developers have moved the locals out, not just for retirement communities. It happens everywhere so do you think all development should stop?

We think the new rules were written for our detriment, not our benefit. The new rules don't make the financial demands on migrants coming over the Southern border. The financial demands are made on legal U.S. and Canadians citizens.

A few people have fudged their incomes under the old rules, but so what? They were never an imposition on Mexico, proving it doesn't take that much to live here. If people caused Mexico a problem like needing social services and costing Mexico money, then I can see why Mexico wouldn't want that. Mexico would need to spend billions in dollar equivalent to catch up to what the U.S. and Canada spends on the illegals coming across their Southern borders.

Under the old rules, many people who sold their homes up North, invested all their money in modest homes here, $80,000-$150,000 USD, and qualified because the income requirement was half. They had little pension or SS coming in but could live well. Now they will need to sell to a nonexistent market, won't be able to sell, and lose all their investment. The people who buy houses in that range will not be coming to Mexico. Mexico will own billions in abandoned property.

We were allowed into Mexico under a set of rules that 99.9% of us obeyed. Mexico decided to pull the rug out from under us.

If Mexico thinks only the wealthier will come here, I don't think so. We have long memories and don't like the rules changing on us. The wealthier are even smarter about it and they won't invest a peso in a country they think will change the rules and boot them out to.

Maybe I read something into your post but it comes across that you don't much respect or care for your fellow foreigners. With that cold blooded lack of empathy, I hope your business is not successful.

The beauty of us Northereners is we stick up for each other and we don't like unfairness.

This is not as drastic a situation, but so you remember Martin Niemöller, Protestant pastor:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.:

When it looks like you are getting the boot, who are you going to ask for sympathy or help?



mazbook1


Nov 18, 2012, 6:46 PM

Views: 6217

    

Re: [La Isla] Overstaying tourist visa

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La Isla, I wouldn't worry or stress about this too much. I seriously doubt that the Mexican government expects to expel working, taxpaying folks like yourself and richmx2 from the country. It's just that the rules for that don't seem to have been addressed, YET.



chinagringo


Nov 18, 2012, 6:50 PM

Views: 6216

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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Profess denial all you wish but your opinion matters little since facts prove the point. Gringos have been scamming the system since the beginning of time because: they can! On another forum where you use a different name, a member commented that he paid $1000MXN to take the easy way when getting a Jalisco drivers license for 4 years. I know of another who paid to get a 10 year license and this particular person has no business getting behind the wheel of a vehicle! Then again, Gringos like to point to their perceived system NOB and play "holier than thou"!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM




La Isla


Nov 18, 2012, 7:10 PM

Views: 6210

    

Re: [mazbook1] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply

In Reply To
La Isla, I wouldn't worry or stress about this too much. I seriously doubt that the Mexican government expects to expel working, taxpaying folks like yourself and richmx2 from the country. It's just that the rules for that don't seem to have been addressed, YET.


Thanks for the reassuring words! I've pretty much calmed down from last weekend's panic attack and will wait to see what happens next.



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 7:13 PM

Views: 6211

    

Re: [richmx2] Overstaying tourist visa

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axixic's answer is excellent. richmx2, you are a self hating white man. yes mexico will acquire billions in abandoned homes. that was my take in 2005. i know that is part of the reason for this law, a business OP. ok, a "legal" business OP.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 18, 2012, 7:19 PM)



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 7:17 PM

Views: 6206

    

Re: [mazbook1] Overstaying tourist visa

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la isla you are naive, they would deport you in a flash. maybe they will ask for a small tip, and "this little mistake can be resolved...... no problem"

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 18, 2012, 7:22 PM)



morgaine7


Nov 18, 2012, 7:19 PM

Views: 6204

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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Quote
We think the new rules were written for our detriment, not our benefit.

May I please think for myself? Thank you. I agree totally with Richmx2 that the legislation was intended to benefit Mexico and Mexicans. Some people seem to be overestimating how important we North American expats are in the overall scheme of things. Maybe in areas with high expat concentrations it may appear as you say, I don't know, but I'm opting out of that notion, along with the "so what?" attitude toward the laws of our host country.

That said, I'm not sure I understand the "fudging income" thing. Rich, could you please elaborate? For all I know, I may be doing it by moving funds from the US to here, though I sincerely hope not.

Kate



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 7:25 PM

Views: 4158

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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kate they WANT you to move $$ here. what are you thinking??



Rolly


Nov 18, 2012, 7:26 PM

Views: 4157

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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"fudging income" is withdrawing money and redepositing it to give the appearance of a higher total income.

Rolly Pirate



morgaine7


Nov 18, 2012, 7:32 PM

Views: 4155

    

Re: [Rolly] Overstaying tourist visa

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Thanks, Rolly and Bronco.
Nope, that's not what I'm doing. Unfortunately, once it gets here, I spend it. Smile

Kate



La Isla


Nov 18, 2012, 7:33 PM

Views: 4153

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
la isla you are naive, they would deport you in a flash. maybe they will ask for a small tip, and "this little mistake can be resolved...... no problem"


You know nothing about me, how long I've been in Mexico, the useful connections I've made with Mexicans through my work, my Mexican "smarts", etc., etc., or you would not call me naive!



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 8:23 PM

Views: 4139

    

Re: [La Isla] Overstaying tourist visa

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la isla, i dont know your "connections". i just see things realistically, a govt can do what they want too. none of us know what will happen.



La Isla


Nov 18, 2012, 8:25 PM

Views: 4137

    

Re: [bronco] Overstaying tourist visa

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In Reply To
la isla, i dont know your "connections". i just see things realistically, a govt can do what they want too. none of us know what will happen.


You can´t see my situation realistically because you know very little about it. Please don´t project your negativity onto others' lives.



bronco

Nov 18, 2012, 8:56 PM

Views: 4133

    

Re: [La Isla] Overstaying tourist visa

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i am speaking generally. this forum is for many different people, & not all of them are lucky. possibly you have something special. in general, a govt can do what they want. thats all i have to say untill we hear feedback which will happen in several weeks.



Reefhound


Nov 18, 2012, 9:31 PM

Views: 4128

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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The ex-pat may not be that significant to Mexico overall but the tourist certainly is. The ex-pats have been among the strongest advocates for Mexico and droves of bitter ex-pats returning to the U.S. could create an image of Mexico as "American unfriendly". How much of an effect this could have, I have no idea.



rockydog85251

Nov 18, 2012, 9:51 PM

Views: 4122

    

Re: [Reefhound] Overstaying tourist visa

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I didn't realize the new regs/law were directed specifically towards those from the US & Canada.........does it SAY those 2 nationalities only? It gave me the impression that it would apply to ANYONE from ANY country.....am I mistaken?
Willie



morgaine7


Nov 18, 2012, 10:12 PM

Views: 4118

    

Re: [Reefhound] Overstaying tourist visa

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I was speaking in the context of the rationale behind the law, not necessarily the effect. I've yet to be convinced that it was aimed at North Americans. You're right, of course, about the importance of tourism, but do you really think there will be "droves of bitter ex-pats returning to the U.S." in sufficient numbers to have a meaningful impact? I find it hard to envision that many people having to leave, but I honestly have no idea how many are affected.

Kate



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 6:28 AM

Views: 4105

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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Read the numbers in the 2010 census and not all foreigners were counted:
http://www.inegi.org.mx/inegi/contenidos/espanol/prensa/contenidos/Articulos/sociodemograficas/nacidosenotropais.pdf

From the U.S.: over 191,000
From Canada: almost 8,000

A total of 196,121 foreign born people in Mexico as of 2010 the large majority are from the U.S. so yes, it is aimed at U.S. citizens.

I don't think the bureaucrats meant for the financials to apply to immigrants from Guatemala and Belize.

I'm sure Mexico has the count of how many people have FM2/3 who are living here, but I haven't found it.

http://geo-mexico.com/?p=4031
"Where in Mexico do most foreigners reside? Baja California has the most foreigners with almost 123,000, followed by Jalisco (84,000), Chihuahua (80,000), and the Federal District (72,000). Tlaxcala has the fewest, with just over 3,200, followed by Tabasco with about 4,500."

Let's assume one forth of the 191,000 U.S. citizens have FM status and 75% of them have FM3s. That is 35,250 people.

If 35,250 people receive the average SS check of $1200, that is $42,300,000 dollars a month or $507,600,000 USD a year. Not chump change and the people who receive this amount spend almost every dime every month.

That is a lot of money in local sales taxes, property taxes, taxis, stores, maids, gardeners, restaurants, doctors, and all others and the money that trickles down to the people dependent on the money made from the above.

I think the numbers of people on FM3/2 are at least triple of what I assumed. In a heavy expat populated area like Lake Chapala it will ruin the economy. The people who can afford to stay will leave because why would they want to stay with closed businesses that cater to foreigners and vacant houses? It ruins the resale on their properties also.

I don't know about other countries but most Americans are suspicious of other countries anyway. Many are still worried about the crime they hear about in Mexico and think foreigners are being killed and kidnapped. They will not like it at all if their fellow Americans are forced to leave because Mexico changed the game and cost them everything they owned. We do stick together on things like this. Most Americans still think Mexico is a Third World country filled with criminals and Mexicans ride burros everywhere.

With the new financial requirements who could trust Mexico not to do this again?



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 6:35 AM

Views: 4104

    

Re: [rockydog85251] Overstaying tourist visa

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The new financial requirements apply to all foreigners who legally enter to live in Mexico. U.S. citizens are 76% of those foreigners, so yes, apparently it does effect them the most. I don't think anyone has said the rules only apply to U.S. and Canadian citizens.



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 6:40 AM

Views: 4103

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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It means transferring money into the account used to prove income, usually a checking account. Such as transferring an extra $200 from savings and then back to savings for 3 months so that the checking account has the past 3 months in deposits in the amount needed to qualify for an FM2/3. Not many people do or ever did it but even if they did, the practice didn't hurt Mexico.



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 6:56 AM

Views: 4100

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply
I didn't "think" for you. If you think everything written is about you, you are mistaken. If it is about you, I will use your name.

I guess you haven't read the rules. I cannot fathom how the rules benefit Mexicans. Please find those benefits for Mexico and Mexicans and post them.

The rules we are concerned with are the financial requirements being made on foreigners. Mexico cannot possibly think these requirements will encourage wealthier foreigners to move to Mexico and therefore spend more money. Mexico will lose it's largest base of foreigners who do not meet the new requirements and lose billions of dollars in revenue.

Wealthier people do not need nor want to live in Mexico especially if it loses the businesses that cater to foreigners. I know many wealthier foreigners who have left Mexico over the last few years because they don't need to put up with the infrastructure, crime and lack of services. One moved to Majorca because she got more for her money. They don't need Mexico.



salto_jorge

Nov 19, 2012, 7:42 AM

Views: 4094

    

Re: [geewiz] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply
Getting back to the Visa issue, I lost my visa a few months ago.

I have visited and waited in line at the local office many times in GDL trying to get it replaced or get a new one, no luck.
Went to the airport and they told me to go to the down town office. Finally a few weeks ago, someone in the downtown office came up with the idea that I entered Mexico as a Mexican, which is not true. The employees clearly do not care or do not want to look anything up one must assume that the visa information is not computerized or they would have the information in seconds/minutes.

As it stands, I have not seen my visa for 5 months, I have a copy of an old expired FMx from the past that I keep with me. On my last visit to get the papers taken care of ( 2 weeks ago), the supervisor in GDL told me to get a new visa when I return home to GDL, then apply to change my status to get a new FMx or what ever it will be called in January. It is all about the politico class and I try to stay as far away from it as I can.

I was in a car accident when I did not have a valid visa, the officer pulled me aside after looking at my expired FMx papers and charged me a fine, never mentioned it to the other person. We both had insurance, no one went to jail, the other person had to pay to have my vehicle repaired which I picked up 4 weeks ago.

When I am ready to head back to el norte this year, I expect to pay some kind of fine at the airport. Maybe it will be the same fine I tried to pay for the last 5 months, while begging for a new visa and I was turned away since I was not ready to leave. Just in case I cannot leave Mexico, I will purchase travel insurance.


This is all from personal experience !


(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Nov 19, 2012, 7:47 AM)



skier14

Nov 19, 2012, 8:01 AM

Views: 4089

    

Re: [salto_jorge] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply
Have you ever thought of traveling to the Mexican/US border and then walking across. No fine. Hope your US passport is current.



donemry

Nov 19, 2012, 8:04 AM

Views: 4089

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply
This thread is filled with more conjecture than a Kreskin performance, and not a little made up data.

Mexican tourism officials predict the country will host 24.7 million foreign visitors in 2012. http://articles.latimes.com/...ico-tourism-20121011

The largest number of Americans outside the United States live in Mexico. According to Mexico 2010 Census, there are 738,103 Americans living in the Mexican Republic.[10] Mostly, people who come from the USA are students, retirees, religious workers (missionaries, pastors, etc.), Mexican-Americans, and spouses of Mexican citizens. A few are professors who come employed by Mexican companies to teach English, other English teachers, and corporate employees and executives.
These residents often don't stay the whole year, with many retirees living half of the year in the USA to keep their retiree benefits, while others, known as "snowbirds", spend only the winter months south of the border. The American community in Mexico is found throughout the country, but there are significant concentrations of U.S. citizens in all the north of Mexico, especially in Tijuana, Mexicali, Los Cabos, San Carlos, Mazatlán, Saltillo, Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo. Also in the central parts of the country such as San Miguel de Allende, Ajijic, Chapala, Mexico City and Cuernavaca, and along the Pacific coast, most especially in the greater Puerto Vallarta area. In the past few years, a growing American community has developed in Mérida, Yucatán.

http://en.wikipedia.org/..._to_Mexico#Americans

The handy anecdotes about knowing some person who did this or that do not create real data nor represent the population at large. The handful of "full time" expats is likely around 200,000. If some number leave or stay will be of little economic consequnce to Mexico compared to the tourism numbers and the "snowbirds". If some significant "negative" effect occurs from the new rules, the rules will change. However, keep in mind that a few hundred unhappy expats does not create an "effect".



morgaine7


Nov 19, 2012, 8:10 AM

Views: 4085

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

| Private Reply
Please re-read your message that I was responding to. You were saying "We think …" as if everyone agreed with you, and not all of us do. I've read the new legislation and the census and INM figures, and my conclusions are different from yours. The INEGI report indicates that 738,103 people living in Mexico as of 2010 were born in the US, just as Donemry stated above. Here's a PDF from INM showing statistics for different types of documents issued:
http://www.inm.gob.mx/...12/Sintesis_2012.pdf
on p. 17 it shows the number of FM2/FM3 equivalents processed in 2011 and the first three quarters of 2012.

Whether or not you or I believe these figures is irrelevant if the government is using them to make decisions, which I'd imagine is pretty likely. And I'm hardly in a position to determine what benefits Mexico or Mexicans. My point was that the intent of the new legislation would have focused on that.

Kate



salto_jorge

Nov 19, 2012, 8:40 AM

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Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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In GDL/Zapopan a few of my neighbors are from one of the upper Mexican classes and for the most part are US Citizens by birth. These folks were born in El Norte as they call it and only go there for vacations and to give birth, none of them have relatives in El Norte. These folks have learned English at private schools in GDL. They are dual nationals so they can work in Mexico but have US Passports just in case they need them.

When you look at the head count for US Citizens in Mexico please remember some of the folks that you see in Mexico and you may think are Mexicans are in fact US Citizens by birth.


PS: The mexican border is a long ways from GDL/Zapopan so I usually take the plane.


(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Nov 19, 2012, 8:44 AM)



bronco

Nov 19, 2012, 8:41 AM

Views: 4072

    

Re: [rockydog85251] Overstaying tourist visa

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europe as well as us/canada.



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 9:05 AM

Views: 4063

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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If you are not in the "we" then it doesn't include you, does it? I don't think I need to write the names of people in the "we."

Glad you have that document. I do not read Spanish so it is difficult finding the right documents.

The estimates I posted earlier were much lower. These numbers show there are many more likely retirees and how they will be impacted.

72, 879 FM3 renewals from January to September 2012, 6073 a month. Adding another 3 months through December 2012, that is 91,098 people with FM3s.

53, 478 FM2s processed through September, estimated 66, 847 to the end of the year.

Total FM2/3s 157,945

Figure 1/2 will have trouble meeting the new financial requirements:

78,972 times $1200 USD a month= $94,767,000 or
$1,137,204,000 a year.

This is a low estimate, but with a low number, this amount of money leaving heavily populated expat areas could be devastating to those areas.



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 9:08 AM

Views: 4061

    

Re: [salto_jorge] Overstaying tourist visa

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Dual citizens, Mexican-Americans, are counted as a citizen of the country they are currently in. A person who is Mexican-American when he is in Mexico, is a Mexican and counted as a Mexican. He cannot access the U.S. embassy. When he is in the U.S., he is counted as an American citizen and cannot access the Mexican embassy.



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 9:25 AM

Views: 4055

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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Because I didn't translate all of the FM2/3s issued in the document, I did not add another 79333 FM2/3s issued and an estimated 19833 through the end of the year totaling 99166.

That makes the amount of money that will be lost by Mexico higher almost double $1,137,204,000 a year I estimated.

I bet the real estate companies love these new regulations. They won't be able to sell anything.

The people who own expensive homes will see the value of their properties dropping because lower priced properties will be flooding the market.

How does this benefit Mexico?



bronco

Nov 19, 2012, 10:34 AM

Views: 4040

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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dont forget $3000 pesos person, for each renewal. do the math!



morgaine7


Nov 19, 2012, 11:03 AM

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Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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Keep in mind that under the old rules, people with FM2/Inmigrante status were already demonstrating the montly income level now required for the new Temporal (400x daily minimum wage in DF). They … in this case "we", since I'm one of them … will be affected only when applying for Permanente.

Kate



Axixic


Nov 19, 2012, 1:08 PM

Views: 2615

    

Re: [morgaine7] Overstaying tourist visa

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Keep in mind that people who qualified for an FM2 only had to produce 3 months of bank statements and those were not carefully checked. People did move money around. Even if the income for the old FM2 is the same for a temporal, they need 6 months of bank statements and all income sources proven.

Many will have trouble producing the extra $500 USD a month for a permanante on 6 months of bank statements. That will hurt more people than you think.

I cannot see a logical reason for Mexico to insist on income this high. Proving higher income does not benefit Mexico and it will only hurt Mexico. There is no correlation between the income and real cost of living.



bronco

Nov 19, 2012, 2:01 PM

Views: 2602

    

Re: [Axixic] Overstaying tourist visa

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regardless of income, people still spend $$. i think the govt should suspend i.m.s.s. for expats, then we are even more of a plus. spend spend but dont get a break. what govt would not like that one?? i have spent more in parmacies than you could imagine. they pay tax to the govt. also my private drs. pay tax on my visits. its a win win. also the old story of paying more for the help. then the help can go out & spend more in walmart.

(This post was edited by bronco on Nov 19, 2012, 2:03 PM)