Forums  > General > General Forum
Cities with potable water?




wantok

Feb 11, 2012, 7:18 PM

Views: 11324

Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I lived in Mexico 12 years ago and had to leave because I was continually plagued with typhoid fever, parasites, etc. I have particular health issues that make me sensitive to bacteria. I would like to relocate there if possible.

A friend who just returned from Merida said the water there is potable. I am wondering what, if any, cities have potable water in Mexico. (It is important that the whole city have it.) All information much appreciated!!

Thanks.

Wantok



chicois8

Feb 11, 2012, 7:45 PM

Views: 11315

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Unless you sing in the shower, everybody drinks bottled water
Ocanahua, Jalisco
San Mateo, California



wantok

Feb 11, 2012, 7:48 PM

Views: 11309

Re: [chicois8] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I drank bottled water. I would like to be able to eat out and be relatively safe. Water permeates everything if you are sensitive as I am.

Wantok



johanson


Feb 11, 2012, 7:50 PM

Views: 11307

Re: [chicois8] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply

In Reply To
Unless you sing in the shower, everybody drinks bottled water

No we don't all drink bottled water. I, for example have almost never had to drink bottled water since I arrived along the shores of Lake Chapala in 1997. I have a filter system and UV filters. Many of my neighbors also use reverse osmosis systems, something I have now added recently to my home.



chicois8

Feb 11, 2012, 7:51 PM

Views: 11306

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Well maybe if you are that sensitive, Mexico is not your cup of tea......could not resist...LOL
Ocanahua, Jalisco
San Mateo, California



wantok

Feb 11, 2012, 7:54 PM

Views: 11298

Re: [chicois8] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Unfortunately you may be right. I am hoping there are some new developments. I was surprised that Bogotá, Colombia and Asunción, Paraguay have potable water however, and that made me wonder if there are any changes in Mexico. The World Bank has been spending a bunch on water in Latin America.



chicois8

Feb 11, 2012, 7:57 PM

Views: 11297

Re: [johanson] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply

In Reply To

In Reply To
Unless you sing in the shower, everybody drinks bottled water

No we don't all drink bottled water. I, for example have almost never had to drink bottled water since I arrived along the shores of Lake Chapala in 1997. I have a filter system and UV filters. Many of my neighbors also use reverse osmosis systems, something I have now added recently to my home.


I probably have if not the same filter as you one very similar,but all restaurants will not have modern systems, the OP states he is sensitive.......
Ocanahua, Jalisco
San Mateo, California



Rolly


Feb 11, 2012, 8:02 PM

Views: 11294

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
For 12 years, I have been drinking tap water at my house in Lerdo, Durango.
The adjoining cities of Gómez Palacio and Torreón have safe water also.

Rolly Pirate



YucaLandia


Feb 11, 2012, 8:15 PM

Views: 11284

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
The last survey of Merida water tested roughly 360 homes across the city. This independent University study found 97% of the time the water was very clean at each home's water meter. The 3% that had bacterial contamination were in one area.

When they tested the same homes water quality at the kitchen sink taps, the number of homes with safe drinking water dropped to 76%. This showed that water quality was good in most homes, and that home plumbing contamination caused most home bacterial contamination at the sink (88% of sinks with contaminated water was caused by in-home problems) . This contamination in individual home plumbing can be remedied simply: Clean the tinaco or cistern to remove any organic debris, and then treat the plumbing system with just ¼ - ½ cup of normal bleach per 1100 liter tinaco. This amount of bleach temporarily raises home plumbing free chlorine levels to typical swimming pool levels. See: http://www.yucatanliving.com/...g-in-the-tropics.htm for disinfection and sanitizing schemes.

Merida's water comes from 350 ft deep wells. Deep wells here provide very clean but hard water. Many people here tend to drink agua de garrafon because of the high hardness of our tap water. Free chlorine tests of water in clean home tinacos shows that Merida's chlorination scheme works very well for most homes, even when the water sits in a hot tinaco. The free chlorine levels in Merida water ensures that your water should be typhoid free, unless your home has organic debris contaminating the tinaco or plumbing.

Since raw meat across Mexico often has salmonella contamination, and salad fixings and vegetables are frequently fertilized with night soil or animal manure (90% likelihood), it would seem to be tough to tell definitively if a bacterial illness like salmonella came from a salad, raw meat cross-contamination in a kitchen, or your tap water.

US water systems are typically allowed to have fecal coliform and accompanying microbial contamination 5% of the time, per EPA drinking water standards, and the last round of nationwide chicken studies found 83% of US grocery store chicken had either salmonella or campylobacter contamination and 50% of US turkey had salmonella contamination - so these problems are not just South of the Border nuisances.
Dr. Steven Fry
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Feb 11, 2012, 10:33 PM)



karenanron

Feb 11, 2012, 8:15 PM

Views: 11282

Re: [Rolly] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
We were in Merida last August and stayed at a hotel in Centro. They provided bottled water for us. We will be back the next month, but staying in Chelem. The bottled water business is going well in Merida. You still have to wash all your fruits and vegies in a solution that I can't name right now.....due to a few glasses of wine. But I agree with what has been said that maybe Mexico not being your place in paradise which is too bad.



wantok

Feb 11, 2012, 8:22 PM

Views: 11274

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I appreciate the information but feel that the issue is not simply cleaning "my" water. Mexico is such a wonderfully social culture, it seems contradictory to not be able to socialize in others' homes or go out to eat. And I know there is plenty of bacteria all around. My stomach has made peace with US bacteria, and I was fine in Montevideo, Asunción, Bogotá (all with potable water, which is why I am looking for this).



chicois8

Feb 11, 2012, 8:26 PM

Views: 11267

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply

In Reply To
I appreciate the information but feel that the issue is not simply cleaning "my" water. Mexico is such a wonderfully social culture, it seems contradictory to not be able to socialize in others' homes or go out to eat. And I know there is plenty of bacteria all around. My stomach has made peace with US bacteria, and I was fine in Montevideo, Asunción, Bogotá (all with potable water, which is why I am looking for this).


Well it seems like you answered your own question, if you have found areas where you have no problems then maybe that's the place for you.......
Ocanahua, Jalisco
San Mateo, California



wantok

Feb 11, 2012, 8:31 PM

Views: 11263

Re: [chicois8] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I have asked for help on this because I prefer Mexico to those other places. Thanks for your input.



karenanron

Feb 11, 2012, 8:32 PM

Views: 11262

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I'm certainly no expert but just relaying what we have experienced. I would say that with your health issues, it would be a crap shoot for you. YucaLandia lives in Merida and knows tons about the area. The times we have been there, we ate out every night and had no problems. Were we lucky? Maybe. Merida is a wonderful place. Go down and try it for a week.



chicois8

Feb 11, 2012, 8:38 PM

Views: 11260

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Then maybe visit where rolly, steve or johanson live and see if it is compatible for you, we all love Mexico that's why we are here but it's like a marriage, if it does not work out then move on.........
Ocanahua, Jalisco
San Mateo, California



bfwpdx

Feb 12, 2012, 5:13 AM

Views: 11226

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I understand the Baja peninsula has potable water because they use deep wells and have little run off from contaminated streams etc etc. It was potable when we travelled there 20 years ago. Maybe someone from that area could comment on the current situation. La Paz was a lovely city then.



whynotwrite

Feb 12, 2012, 5:33 AM

Views: 11223

Re: [johanson] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply

In Reply To

In Reply To
Unless you sing in the shower, everybody drinks bottled water

No we don't all drink bottled water. I, for example have almost never had to drink bottled water since I arrived along the shores of Lake Chapala in 1997. I have a filter system and UV filters. Many of my neighbors also use reverse osmosis systems, something I have now added recently to my home.

You are just drinking bottled water out of your tap. The water must not be good or you would not need the casa sized filtration system.



robt65

Feb 12, 2012, 7:09 AM

Views: 11192

Re: [whynotwrite] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Hello whynotwrite,

Sorry but I have to agree with Pete (johanson) for several reasons. Our water in the San Juan del Rio area of Queretaro is fine for drinking, and I also am installing a total casa double filter system. I do not know your location, or for how long you have been here in Mexico, but there are numerous times when there are problems with municipal water delivery to homes, a maintenance problem, a line break, or even a semi annually closure of the water plant for periodic maintenance or cleaning. There are no public boil water advisory warnings here for such mishaps. I also am installing a cistern, and no matter how clean you keep your cistern there is always a chance for a water bacteria problem. So for those who can afford such a system, it is only prudent to install one. It is a fairly inexpensive insurance. As for myself with three older persons and two children in our household, I prefer to error on the side of caution. So having a filter system of any kind, is not necessarily an indication of bad water at the present time. That's my 2 cents worth anyway. . . . . . Each to his own.

robt65





(This post was edited by robt65 on Feb 12, 2012, 8:10 AM)



valdecker

Feb 12, 2012, 7:52 AM

Views: 11174

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I live in Ajijic; used to live in San Miguel de Allende. I can't handle the hot places as a year around resident.
I had the kind of problems you've described. All the bugs loved me.
Eventually, I figured out which restaurants weren't cleaning their food properly and I don't go there. I used bottled water at home.
Finally, I had a "whole house" purification system installed and seldom get the bugs.
Frankly, I don't trust those big garafons they sell. Why are there "things" floating in them sometimes? I don't really want to know.


(This post was edited by valdecker on Feb 12, 2012, 7:54 AM)



morgaine7


Feb 12, 2012, 7:57 AM

Views: 11171

Re: [bfwpdx] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I'm in La Paz, and everybody drinks filtered or bottled water. From what I'm told, the city water is good when it comes out of the plant but may not be by the time it makes its way through the outdated infrastructure. It's not all well water. Some comes from a reservoir in the hills outside of town that is both spring-fed and rainfall-fed. What comes out of my faucets is heavily chlorinated. I've used my pool test kit on it and the level is actually higher than in the pool. So it's probably safe but doesn't taste good for drinking. I use it "as is" for everything else (cooking, coffee, brushing teeth), but I'm not at all sensitive.

Kate



robt65

Feb 12, 2012, 8:16 AM

Views: 11165

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Hi wantok,

I know there are difficulties for sure in many different places in Mexico. In the Tampico, Altamira area of Tamaulipas I was always having a difficult time with waterborne bugs. You can always carry a small bottle or two in your purse or pockets. Any boiled water for example for tea or coffee is usually not a problem. Don't take any ice from cafe's in your drinks and change a few NOB habits and life can be a more comfortable thing here in Mexico.

robt65



sfmacaws


Feb 12, 2012, 10:41 AM

Views: 11122

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Personally, I never drank water from the tap in the US either. I question the infrastructure getting the water to my house and even, in some old houses I lived in, the pipes in the house itself. Plus, it never tastes very good in a locality with hard water. Same thing here in Merida, I brush my teeth and cook with it but I drink water from my RO tap and use that for coffee as well, a matter of taste more than anything. I've never seen a nice restaurant here in Merida that doesn't use bottled water for ice, I'm sure there are some but it isn't common.

All that said, if you are particularly susceptible to bacterial problems, the tropics is probably not the place for you. Everything grows better here including bacteria. I'd say you'd be better off in a cold and high altitude location in Mexico. Look in the Bajio and around San Miguel.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán





Papirex


Feb 12, 2012, 3:11 PM

Views: 11067

Re: [whynotwrite] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
There are no enforced public health laws or regulations down here. You are truly on your own to protect yourself and your family. The time zone listed in your profile is somewhere east of New York or Maine, so you are probably not in México.


No one should post as a resident if they don't live here, the reading public might be deceived into thinking you know what you are talking about.


The one thing that can be said about the water supply anywhere in México is that it is unreliably potable. It might be OK one one day in the morning, and contaminated the next. You must do everything to protect yourself at all times.


As to shallow wells, the water from a shallow well is always suspect. A vacuum pump will only lift water a few feet at sea level. Shallow water is almost always contaminated with animal and bird droppings, urine, decaying dead creatures, etc.


I had my training in The state of California. In that state, it was required for a well to supply domestic water, to be drilled through at least two strata of impermeable rock. This necessitated using a siphon jet pump to raise the water to the surface. The average well for domestic service was 180 feet deep. They were always expensive.


About 4 years ago, the shower heads in my house started to stop up. I removed the shower heads to flush the pipes. Many small pieces of plastic came out. They looked like they might have been part of clear plastic bags, before they were chopped into small pieces when passing through a pump. I had to flush the plastic out of the pipes every 2 or 3 days for about a month.


City officials denied that there was any problem, and would do no investigating. You must use silver colloids In the water to soak all vegetables before cooking them, and to treat water in garafons here, A whole house water purification system is good insurance, and a very good thing to have installed.


Stay healthy, and do everyone a favor, and stay gone, or don't post about things you have no knowledge of.\


Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo



fug

Feb 12, 2012, 3:26 PM

Views: 11058

Re: [wantok] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
In answer to your post, I am unaware of any total cities that have 100% potable water. fug.



YucaLandia


Feb 12, 2012, 5:57 PM

Views: 11016

Re: [Papirex] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Papirex is correct in instructing people to get your information from reliable sources.**

The silver colloid products recommended above are at best only partly effective against pathogenic bacteria, and they are completely ineffective against other some salmonella species.

A good National Institutes of Health (NIH) study tested common vegetables from Mexico City, and the found that silver colloid products like Bacdyne, Microdyne, et al only reduce counts of key pathogens by just 29% and 52% reductions, and also found that they do not knock out Salmonella Typhi. (Typhoid)

For microorganisms contaminating lettuce and leafy vegetables: lettuce contamination was reduced from 200,000 UFC/g down to only 96,500 UFC/g, and contamination on leafy vegetables was reduced from 175,000 to just 125,000 UFC/g. The remaining levels of microbial contaminants were more than high enough to sicken people.

Should we trust our health to colloidal silver soaks, when 81% to 48% of Mexican microbial pathogens remain after soaking with Microdyne or Bacdyne silver colloids, and when Salmonella Typhi is basically untouched. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17061512
steve

-
**If you check pseudo-scientific "health" sites around the web, there are plenty of claims about colloidal silver, but actual peer-reviewed research by respected scientists contradict the "health" site claims. I personally trust NIH study results of Mexican microbes on Mexican vegetables over internet claims.
-
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



YucaLandia


Feb 12, 2012, 6:05 PM

Views: 3396

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Ooops, in pointing out the problems found in up to 90% of Mexican fruit and veg, I forgot to describe the alternative solutions that actually work:
~ Vigorously scrub the exterior of fruits and veg with a good brush (when possible) to remove dirt, debris, and oils.
~ Soak the fruit or veg in either dilute bleach or peroxide solutions.
~ Rinse with clean water.
~ Air dry thoroughly.

Check out http://www.yucatanliving.com/...g-in-the-tropics.htm "Healthy Eating in the Tropics" for details.
Dr. Steven Fry
-
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



joaquinx


Feb 12, 2012, 7:15 PM

Views: 3388

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
But weren't those test performed on vegetables fertilized with wastewater?

Are you stating that you will get ill from eating any vegetables?

Lastly, do you eat vegetables and fruits? If so, how do you treat them or do you eat them untreated?
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.



YucaLandia


Feb 13, 2012, 8:56 AM

Views: 3339

Re: [joaquinx] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
You are exactly right about the issue of human waste being used to fertilize Mexican crops. Mexican vegetable and fruits (like strawberries) are generally fertilized with human night soil, or pig manure, etc. The kind of feces doesn't matter so much as the likelihood of contaminating yourself with pathogenic fecal microbes, including worm eggs, amoeba, protozaoans, and/or various cryptosporids.

Past studies have found that up to 90% of Mexican produce is sold with significant microbial contamination.

Clean your fruit and veg as I described above. Use Microdyne if you must, but realize that it can leave behind 50% - 80% of some microbes. Dilute bleach or peroxide (Agua Oxigenada) works, so, this is what we do.

As the first Western scientist invited into the Newly Independent States after the breakup of the Soviet Union to evaluate food, water, and air quality and the testing labs, I got horrible food poisoning 4 times while working there, and even with pro-biotic overseedings of beneficial gut bacteria and fungi, my gut has remained somewhat sensitive to pathogenic microbes.

Studies have found that the cells of our intestinal lining profligately swap segments of DNA with gut microbes - which permanently inserts bits of the microbes DNA codes/genes into our gut cells - which can create permanent(?) openings in our intestinal lining that the microbes use for future intrusions. Said another way: It is as if you passed out keys to the lock on your front door to random strangers - and those strangers can then use the keys later for easy entrance around part of your immune defenses.

This is why I personally tend to avoid salads and eat fruits and veg that can be peeled (citrus, bananas, mangoes, carrots, etc), or eat things that are cooked to 145 F for 3 minutes and served hot, or eat things that come out of hot oil and are each/all transferred cleanly. I have experienced enough GI problems due to past exposures - and I don't like passing out front door keys any more.

When only minor changes in habits, why not change? Since it only takes one exposure to a particularly nasty microbe, why risk it?
Dr. Steven Fry
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



Anonimo

Feb 13, 2012, 9:17 AM

Views: 3329

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Steven; what's the recommended dilution for agua oxigenada to purify raw vegetables? The thought of bleach residues in salad are unappealing.

Gracias

Saludos,
Anonimo



Papirex


Feb 13, 2012, 9:50 AM

Views: 3320

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I don't doubt your statistics Concerning water borne decreases at all Steve, but the sad fact is that Microdyne and similar products are the most available remedies to condition the always untreated domestic water in México.


My suegra continues to live with me, she lived with me and my late wife for several years, even though she owns her own apartment outright in México City. She lost her husband, her own mother, and two of her three children in recent years, it is lonely for her in her own house there now. Plus it is colder there in the winter, and her colonia has gone to hell since the Government built two office buildings with zero parking a block or two away. She loves it here in Cuernavaca too. She speaks some English too, that is good for me.


There is no romance between us, but we are very fond of one another. I love her like a sister now.


I don't cook much, so she does all of the cooking here. She has been cooking and preparing meals for several decades here, No one has ever become ill from the food she prepares. Just lucky? Maybe. She never buys leafy vegetables from a neighborhood verdedura though.


She doesn't just rinse leafy vegetables like lettuce in Microdyne, she soaks them. I have never timed it, but I will guess it is for an hour or more. I pay for all of the food, and her other expenses here, even though she has a Mexican pension, and a US Social Security benefit. I take her out for dinner, or breakfast 3 or 4 times a week too. My own net income has increased by about 35% since my wife's death because I had to take those reduction to assure survivors benefits for her from my 3 union pensions since she was 23 years younger than I am.


We are careful to only patronize nice restaurants, and we never eat street food. There are many unlicensed and illegal restaurants in peoples homes here, they don't interest me.


I had bottled garafons of “purified” water from two different water suppliers turn green with an algae bloom in them. Both suppliers told me the same “story”, it was because the bottles were stored in the sunlight. When I told them that if the water was thoroughly sanitized, the would be no living organism in them to bloom. I think that some of their employees were just goofing off and simply filling the bottles without sanitizing the water, maybe the owners just wanted to save the cost of the electricity, who knows?


For the past few years, I have treated every garafon of water with a capful of Microdyne from a 500 ML bottle. Those large bottles of Microdyne are not very expensive, and last for about 8 months. I even give my dogs the treated water, They are dangerous, but healthy. If you are not watchful, my two dogs will love you to death.


About all we can do here is to be careful of the food we buy and eat. The Government here doesn't know,or care, and does nothing to protect you. You are on your own in México.


Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo



mazbook1


Feb 13, 2012, 2:17 PM

Views: 3292

Re: [fug] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Well, Mazatlán has potable water in the whole urban area, and I have drunk nothing but tap water for the last 9-10 yrs. The water is quite hard with lots of iron and manganese in it, so I, along with everyone but the very poorest, have a simple filter between the street and my house (just because it looks so bad unfiltered).

I have been preparing meals here for 14 years, and never once cleaned or scrubbed any food to be eaten unpeeled and uncooked in anything except the tap water. ALL commercial ice in Mazatlán is made from purified water (how purified I have no idea), but I've been drinking iced drinks here for 14 years.

The ONLY time I have ever had an intestinal upset (and it was a doozy!) in the 14 years I have lived here was after eating an evening meal at a small restaurant on the plaza in Uman, Yucatán (just north of Mérida) in July 2010.



fug

Feb 13, 2012, 3:02 PM

Views: 3282

Re: [mazbook1] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Good info. Thanks. I, too, drink water from the tap, but live in a Fracc in West Ajijic, that has its own well and purification system and water is checked for potability quarterly in GDL fug



YucaLandia


Feb 13, 2012, 5:22 PM

Views: 3255

Re: [Papirex] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Hey Rex,
Great stories. I especially like how you have such a good relationship with your suegra. You and I both got lucky in marrying into good families, where through no fault of our own, we wound up with good spouses and good suegras.

I have trouble communicating, and I did not do well enough when describing alternatives to Microdyne, since Microdyne only kills some microbes even when used as a soak. Bleach is very available, and dilutions of simple bleach works very well for disinfecting things, killing even hepatitis and typhoid. Ordinary bleach is available at pretty much all of our grocery stores and mid-sized tiendas - just don't use scented bleach, don't use the gloppy no-spill bleach - only use simple ordinary laundry bleach, like Chloralex. For vegetables, dilute 10 drops of bleach per liter of water and soak for 5 minutes.

The CDC, NIH, and EPA recommend bleach for disinfecting water - and they actually advise against trusting colloidal silver. The CDC, NIH, and USDA recommend dilute bleach for disinfecting fruits and veg at home - and they do not advise using colloidal silver like Microdyne. The WHO recommends using bleach to disinfect contaminated water and contaminated foods - not colloidal silver.

I have searched the online literature for 5 years, and only found one semi-credible reference for a peroxide procedure proven to kill a variety of common known pathogens on Mexican vegetables and fruits. **

In 1996, Science News Online reports that Dianne Peters of University of Nebraska found that spraying vegetables with 3% hydrogen peroxide (the typical concentation sold at grocery stores and pharmacies), followed by soaking the vegetables in a 50:50 dilution of vinegar and water killed Salmonella, Shigella, and E. coli O157:H7. Science News quoted her saying:



"If the acetic acid got rid of 100 organisms, the hydrogen peroxide would get rid of 10,000, and the two together would get rid of 100,000."

"What I really liked about this treatment," she adds, "is that every [microbe] that drips off is killed." So you're not just transferring disease-causing contamination from your food to the sink, drain, or cutting board. Speaking of which, she notes that the paired sprays work well in sanitizing counters and other food preparation surfaces -- including wood cutting boards." http://www.sciencenews.org/...rch/9_28_96/food.htm



It is worth noting that this small 1996 study has not been confirmed, nor could I find any other publications that followed-up on this proposed system - which means... ??? Her work did show that using peroxide alone was not as effective as her multi-step peroxide then vinegar approach. As a chemist, I would note that household peroxide solutions degrade in sunlight, and they need to be stored in brown - dark - bottles to maintain their potency.

So, if you don't like the idea of bacteria, cryptosporids, amoeba, or protozoans being left by colloidal silver after soaking your berries, lettuce, cauliflower, sprouts, cilantro, spinach, (and other produce that cannot be washed easily), then switch to the proven alternative: dilute bleach, or the less-well-documented peroxide then vinegar system.
Dr. Steven Fry

-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



YucaLandia


Feb 13, 2012, 5:24 PM

Views: 3252

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
**Since I no longer have access to a University library (living in Mexico), here is a list of recent literature references for using peroxide on produce:

Many studies have demonstrated the efficacies of dilute H2O2 and
peroxyacetic acid in sanitizing fresh produce including mushrooms (Sapers, Kamp,
Pilizota, & Miller, 2001), apples (Sapers, Miller, Jantschke, & Mattrazzo, 2000),
melons (Ukuku, Sapers, & Pilizota, 2001), tomatoes (Sapers & Jones, 2006;
Venkitanarayanan, Lin, Bailey, & Doyle, 2002) and leafy greens (Lin, Moon, Doyle,
& McWatters, 2002; McWatters, Doyle, Lin, Chinnan, & Walker, 2002a; Wei,
Hammes, & Wolf, 2005).

One of the main advantages of using H2O2 as a disinfecting
agent is that it produces no residue as it is decomposed into water and oxygen by the
enzyme catalase which is naturally found in plants (Ölmez & Kretzschmar, 2009).
Although some studies also showed that treatment of H2O2 could cause browning and
adverse impacts on some types of fresh produce (Sapers et al., 2001), other reports
indicated that H2O2 treatment improved sensory quality and shelf life of some fresh
produce (Lin et al., 2002; McWatters, Doyle, Lin, Chinnan, & Walker, 2002b; G. M.
Sapers, Miller, Pilizota, & Mattrazzo, 2001). " http://dspace.udel.edu:8080/...hesis.pdf?sequence=1

A Journal of Food Science article http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/...22/1/IND43889574.pdf found that it took 5% (strong undiluted) peroxide AND 60ºC heating to kill Escherichia coli NRRL B-766 or a Salmonella cocktail...

Based on this study of peroxide not working on an easy to clean smooth skinned vegetable (tomatoes), Hydrogen Peroxide by itself does not have a good proven record of killing common microbial pathogens , and both peroxide and Microdyne (colloidal silver) have actually been shown to NOT work.

Does the inconvenience of double treatment systems that often don't work, or heating the fruits and veg to 140ºF seem worthwhile? ... especially since 140ºF temperature ironically kills microbes with just water and 3 minutes of heating?
steve
-

-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Feb 13, 2012, 5:39 PM)



GringoCArlos

Feb 13, 2012, 9:10 PM

Views: 3224

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Commercial vegetable farmers in my area (bajio) aren't using human schitt for fertilizer. Most here use commercial granular fertilizers. If hog manure is used, it is generally tilled in before planting so the nitrogen content isn't lost, and soil bacteria breaks it down into plant nutrients so it can be utilized by the plant.

If human or animal waste, or really contaminated irrigation water is used improperly, it's by the small farmers who have little education, no money to buy fertilizer and strong constitutions who sell only to the smallest local markets.

Hydroponic production in MX is booming, and one can find all kinds of hydro produce in the supermarkets. Hydro farmers aren't going to risk their big investments with risky production practices.

If someone wants to be safe with their health in Mexico, my question is: do you have your Hepatitis vaccinations up to date, take a round of anti-parasitic pills each year, and regularly eat yogurt?

I'll take my chances in simply rinsing off what I eat under the tap, peeling or boiling some things, and leave it at that. By dumping into your body all of the chemicals suggested to "sterilize" your food, you are also destroying the very things in your gut that can protect you, or cause other problems related to those chemicals.



Anonimo

Feb 14, 2012, 5:59 AM

Views: 3202

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Steven (Yucalandia), I don't doubt that this is good information and highly effective in killing of bacteria on raw produce.

But here's the thing: when we return home after a mercado shopping trip, we are usually tired. I believe that it's best to disinfect all the incoming produce before putting it away in the refri. Under normal circumstances, this can be a 30 minute plus task. Adding peroxide sprays, then vinegar-water soaks seems even longer a task. I suppose we can try the bleach method, which require just one application. The trick is to measure out only the required droplets of bleach, because an overdose, IMO and experience, can make you feel sick, apart from the bacteria. I dislike the smell of bleach and would prefer to avoid it.

P.S.: We don't have any domestic employees to do these things for us.

P.P.S: we make a point of frequently washing our hands with soap and water, and I am a raving fanatic about kitchen hygiene, yet I occasionally discover oversights in this endeavor.

Saludos,
Anonimo



YucaLandia


Feb 14, 2012, 7:46 AM

Views: 3181

Re: [GringoCArlos] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Hi Carlos,
My hope is that given the facts, people can make rational decisions about their health based on reality versus guesses and internet "health-scare" hyperbole. I think you are guessing-at and overestimating the tiny amount of bleach that 10 drops of 5% bleach in a liter water gives on your food. Your lurid description of

"By dumping into your body all of the chemicals suggested to "sterilize" your food, you are also destroying the very things in your gut ...

is akin to believing that there really are big scary monsters under the bed.

Let's get out a flash-light and examine the monsters:
The amount of bleach residue in a serving of veg, ~ chlorine left after disinfection ~ is very very small. There is 860 times less chlorine from disinfection of vegetables than the chlorine in a glass of tap water.

Similarly, the tiny residue of bleach from disinfecting a serving of veg is 5700 times less than the bleach your body absorbs from taking a shower in chlorinated tap water.

Continuing with practical everyday examples of actual relative risks: Since smoking deaths account for roughly 500,000 US deaths per year, and ALL contaminants in drinking water cause only 250 - 1000 US deaths per year, ~ being around a smoker is likely your biggest risk ~ where being around smokers is 420,000 times riskier than eating disinfected vegetables.

In terms of actual (increasing) relative risks: Due to DEATH RISKS, please plan on
~ not using tap water: 520 times higher risks of death from 3 glasses of water vs. 5 servings of veg per day,
~ not taking showers: 1,150 times higher risks of death from 1 shower per day vs. 5 servings of veg per day,
~ not driving your car: 28,900 times higher risks of death for driving vs. disinfected veg,
~ not seeing a doctor and NO hospital visits: 103,500 times higher risks of medical error death vs. disinfected veg,
~ not seeing being around smokers: 420,000 times higher risks of smoking related death vs. disinfected veg,

Why is this all true? Because the amount of bleach residue is tiny tiny tiny.
10 drops of 5% bleach in a liter of water is a 1:2000 dilution that results in a disinfectant concentration of just 0.025 g of bleach per liter. 25 milligrams in a liter is a tiny amount. When you rinse the food with water, at most 2% of the original solution remains, which means that at most 0.0005 g bleach per LITER of bleach remain on your lettuce.

For 0.5 mL remaining of the rinse water with tiny residues of bleach on your food, you then have just 0.0000007 g of bleach.

Do you really believe that 0.0000007 g of bleach will affect the bacteria in your stomach?
If so, you should never drink tap water nor should you ever take a shower.

Hope these very real 4 decades of data shine a little light on the monsters under the bed - to help you understand what your real risks in life are - and to help readers make rational fact-based health choices to care for themselves and their family. Do any of us really plan to never drive, nor take showers, nor see the doctor?
Dr. Steven Fry
-
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



YucaLandia


Feb 14, 2012, 7:50 AM

Views: 3179

Re: [Anonimo] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Excellent, excellent, excellent point on washing hands...

Relative to the risks described above, effective hand washing ( 20 seconds of scrubbing with soapy suds ~ 2 Yankee Doodles ~ of washing) really is one the very best measures we can take for healthy living .
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



sfmacaws


Feb 14, 2012, 10:33 AM

Views: 3150

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
I'll be honest. I rarely soak vegetables if they are only for Mimi and I, especially if I am going to cook them. When we have guests though, I do soak everything especially if it will be served raw. I use a very small amount of chlorine in a sink of water for around 10 minutes, then I rinse everything thoroughly in RO water. No bleach residue, no sick guests.

I almost always buy the hydroponic lettuce anymore. I like it, it seems fresher and it keeps a lot longer in the refrigerator with a little water on the roots. Since there are only two of us, the ability to not have to throw a lot out is important. Again, if it is for just us, I don't do more than a quick rinse in RO water. The main things that I do soak before even we eat them are bumpy fruits like cantaloupe and strawberries, I soak them before I cut them.

I'm a bit maniacal about washing my hands frequently, I take acidophillus and eat yogurt daily, and I use bleach to clean anything that has touched raw chicken or pork and hydrogen peroxide with vinegar to clean all other surfaces.

We rarely get sick from food, never from food eaten at home, and I've only had to treat myself for parasites once. I do get tested every couple of years.

I think what Steve is trying to do is give people the information to make their own choices about what is doable and what will give them the best return for time spent.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán





Anonimo

Feb 14, 2012, 11:02 AM

Views: 3145

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply

Quote
When you rinse the food with water, at most 2% of the original solution remains, which means that at most 0.0005 g bleach per LITER of bleach remain on your lettuce.


So, after I soak the vegs in bleach solution, I then have to rinse of the disinfectant soak with agua purificada? This could get costly in the long run as well as time consuming.

Saludos,
Anonimo.

PS: We are having salad for lunch. Well soaked in Microdyn solution.
Had it yesterday. No problems so far.



YucaLandia


Feb 14, 2012, 11:26 AM

Views: 3141

Re: [Anonimo] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
The rinse is for vegetables that hold water, leafy things like spinach, cilantro, sprouts, & lettuce - otherwise, most of us find the chlorine smell from the residual water held-up in the leaves ... unappetizing.

If there was a good viable alternative to bleach, that is odorless and safe, I'd be glad to switch,
steve
-
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com



sanjuan

Feb 14, 2012, 12:44 PM

Views: 3111

Re: [YucaLandia] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
Interesting. I'm curious to know if Merida has constant water pressure in their lines or is it like where I live and we only get water for 3 hours 3 times a week. I've heard with the latter that contamination from seepage into the lines when there is no pressure can be a problem.



sfmacaws


Feb 14, 2012, 1:54 PM

Views: 3097

Re: [sanjuan] Cities with potable water?

| Private Reply
We don't have those types of interruptions in Merida. The water flows at a sufficient rate to get up to tinacos (about 20') in houses without a cisterna. I have a cisterna under the garage floor and use a pump for pressure and to fill a tinaco on the 2nd story roof. That's much higher, ceilings are between 18' and 20' on both floors. Reading about these water and electrical problems elsewhere in the country I feel very fortunate that everything works pretty well here.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán