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What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?




Randy in AGS

Nov 8, 2002, 3:37 PM

Views: 38528

    

What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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Hello: I guess this kind of follows Keiths rant about crime in the countryside.

A few days ago, we had lunch with the ex-presidente (ex-mayor) of a small, beautiful town in the los Altos region of eastern Jalisco, who is one of our main clients. We talked business (dairy cows) for a time, then shifted to issues facing the seemingly tranquil, beautiful, undiscovered colonial town. What he said shocked all of us; now that it is harder to smuggle drugs into a post 9/11 USA, the Narcos in their misguided wisdom are developing new markets in Mexico. At least in this small town, the Police are being used as the distributors and developing a client base of teenagers. Drug use among teens is really a big problem in this formerly tranquil town. The ex-presidente, who is a serious man and known as a law & order, lights out in the cantinas early man, is deeply pained by this. He basically can do nothing.

I post this not to start any flame wars on the authenticity of my report, as it is verifiable. I post it to prove the point that no matter what the official line is on how police corruption is evaporating, nothing could be further from the truth.



JudyinKC

Nov 8, 2002, 4:00 PM

Views: 37932

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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Are you saying this is happening in Los Altos or Aguascalientes? (You kind of lost me there.)



Randy in AGS

Nov 8, 2002, 4:08 PM

Views: 37928

    

In a small town in los Altos...

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Hi Judy: I assume if it is happening in a small, beautiful, colonial town which looks tranquil on the outside, it is also happening in other small towns & cities throughout Mexico.



Georgia


Nov 8, 2002, 5:05 PM

Views: 37899

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] In a small town in los Altos...

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This general situation (increase of drug use among youth in Mexico) was reported on in Yahoo News this week. So, your observation apparently applies to many a town in Mexico. Apparently, Fox is aware of it and has annoounced that action will be taken. I wish him well.



Rolly


Nov 8, 2002, 6:37 PM

Views: 37866

    

Re: [Georgia] In a small town in los Altos...

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Youth drug use seems to be rampant in my town, as is petty theft to support it. Just tonight on my way home a was flagged down by a young man that has worked on my house project a few times and who I thought was one of the straight shooters. He had a cassette player he wanted to sell to me for 20 pesos. Makes me sad.

Rolly Pirate



keith

Nov 8, 2002, 8:31 PM

Views: 37832

    

Re: [Rolly] In a small town in los Altos...

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What kinds of drugs are you seeing in your towns? The reason I ask is that for the last couple of years I've been hearing about (and even been offered a couple of times) white powders (I've declined--not for me) which are supposed to be coke. My take on this situation is that pot goes out and somewhere along the distribution route, it crosses path with cocain which then takes a turn and heads back in the direction the pot came from until it finally reaches even the most remote parts of the canyons. I tell anyone I can in our neighborhood, "watch out, one of these times it's going to be methamphetamines, and then we are really in trouble." So what I'm wondering, Randy and Rolly, and anyone else out there in small towns, is what you are seeing pot, or is it white powders, and if it is white powders, is it coke or is it meth or what?



Rolly


Nov 8, 2002, 9:33 PM

Views: 37807

    

Re: [keith] In a small town in los Altos...

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Both pot and coke. They say the white stuff is coke. I don't use it myself, but from what I have observed of those who do, I'd say it is coke and not meth. Overall, I think alcohol continues to be the major abuse drug.

Rolly Pirate



marcella

Nov 8, 2002, 10:44 PM

Views: 37789

    

Re: [keith] In a small town in los Altos...

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Hmmm....I think that cocaine is really white and powdery and that methampetamines (meth, crystal,crank or whatever you want to call it) are usually in rock form meaning that they are hardened and the grains of the drug are stuck together. I live in Arkansas (which is the fromer meth capital of the WORLD) if you're wondering why I seem to know so much about it. Cocaine of course comes from the coco plant and makes your mouth and lips numb. Meth usually comes from some cracked out persons bathtub-lol and can have any number of ingredients usually involving ephedrine and battery parts and anhydrous ammonia(these things are very very bad for you) Personally I wouldnt worry about meth becomming a problem in Mexico cause its very very hard to manufature it in hot and hummid climates. Anyway, if you're ever in doubt and u want to know if what you're seeing is cocaine just put a very small amout on the tip of your tounge (if it goes numb its probably coke), I don't think anyone has ever died from putting a very small amount of thier tounge....Keep in mind that both of thses drugs are usually "laced" meaning that they are dilluted to make the stuff go farther (good for the seller) but not neccesarily good for you:( Anyway I experimented with coke and meth when I was in high-school and I can tell you first hand that most of my old friends ended in in jail, overdosed or are total loosers now, and they look like they're like 40 even though they're in their 20's:( Also, I lived in Costa Rica for 10 years and saw plenty of coke but never any meth. Anyway.....

xoxo



marcella

Nov 8, 2002, 10:49 PM

Views: 37774

    

Re: [marcella] In a small town in los Altos...

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Yes Rolly! I could't agree with you more!!! Anything in moderation:) I drink a little myself, but alcohol can do terrible things:( I would say that it is definately the most problamatic drug that I have come into contact with..... and I don't care who does what as long as I dont get shot or anything:) Personally I think that if guns are illegal then only criminals will have them, if drugs are illegal then criminals will have the monoply...oh well:(

xoxo



Don


Nov 9, 2002, 7:32 AM

Views: 37760

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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Mexico seems to be just starting to realize that drugs are not just passing through Mexico to The U.S., but many are staying and being consumed in Mexico. I also agree with Rolly and believe that alcohol is a bigger problem at this time. Although there is much corruption in Mexico, not all police or politicians are corrupt. Mexico is making some progress to clean up corruption, but it won't be done over night. It will take years and then it will never all go away. Just is Seattle last month a veteran police officer was arrested for being a drug dealer. He is in jail and they will never use his badge number again because of want he did wearing it. So, we shouldn't brand all police or politicians here in Mexico as being corrupt. Many are, but hopefully the ones that aren't, will work for a better Mexico.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 9, 2002, 10:31 AM

Views: 37695

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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if you are an american citizen, i would stay out of it. my husband once was a gang member, who dealt in this, i can tell you that the amount of money involved merits that it is dangerous to even attempt to get involved in this. when my husband was arrested and sent to prison, he was dealing arms on both sides of the border and had over seven hundred thousand dollars in assets, which were rightfully confiscated, because of his corrupt lifestyle. he was at the time considered an old school or o.g. but he wasn't even high on the chain of this element. he was dealing not only with corrupt police but mafiosos and ever member of his gang was eventually murdered. he had been in one of Los angeles's toughest gangs, and they have spread from los angeles throughout latin america now.

fortunately for us, my husband changed his life when he was arrested and now is a decent person, who even tries to help gang members get out of gangs. many of the cartels are even run from the u.s. prisons, where they mandate many principles under the guise of brown pride movements that have more power than many u.s. politicians. with this power and money, they can easily purchase the police and continue their business. many of the wealthy areas in mexico have people you would consider normal living there, who don't even look like gang members, but they are involved in the cartel.

the truth is unfortunately, that many politicians on both sides of the border are purchased by this brown pride movement. you can imagine how appealing it is to have hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown at you, when you are used to making about sixty or ninety dollars a week. where i live in playas, three of my neighbors are operating under this type of corruption. one is a policeman that sells cars, jet skis, and assorted other items that he confiscates and has some rather valuable assets. another launders money. i know this, because they tried to get my husband involved in their business, since he still has the tattoos from his gang days on him and they confused him for still being a member. the last one is involved in drugs. this has been going on for years, and is known to most mexicans.

my tendency, is to stay as far away from the corruption as i can and my husband as well. we've seen too many people killed over this. i find it particulary repulsive as most of you, because i wasn't raised around gangs at all, and honestly, i wasn't inclined to date my husband when i met him because he had been in a gang.

for your own safety, i would stay out of it and let the mexican government clean up their own country. i agree with you about how sad it is...and it's even more tragic when the drugs are sold to children. but americans don't properly understand how organized this really is and how deep it goes or even where it is rooted...which is often in the u.s. prisons.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 9, 2002, 11:27 AM

Views: 37674

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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i read my post and realized how it sounded. i want to clarify one thing. most people involved in Atzlan and Brown Pride movements are not involved in this sort of lifestyle or even condone it. We promote pride, but our involvement is in an area where we promote education, culture, and positive elements of Latino culture.

My husband has a business now, which deals in art. We have both pursued education in the arts and try to use this media to help the young gang members who are deported after serving time and live in tijuana. we feel that part of the problem with gang involvement is a feeling of no hope in the future and no window to what their life can really develop into. that was the problem with my husband, who lived in the u.s. illegally from the time he was fourteen and hence joined a gang for some feeling of belonging and self identity. we feel through education, latinos can achieve some sense of equality both in the u.s. and mexico.

unfortunately, we don't have the financial backing to equal the forces you are mentioning. one thing we do have though is an enormous amount of pride and love of our culture.

most of the problems with corruption in mexico have to do with the inequity of social classes and inequity of economic opportunity, just like in the u.s. until the mexican government can fix this, you will have the problem you identified. that's why most people in the brown pride movements believe in promoting community involvement. what you can do as an american citizen living in mexico, is help to educate children as to the positive elements of achieving education and pride in their culture. i believe that vicente fox is doing this and i support him in his efforts. he is an incredible example of how mexico can change and as it does, much like the gangs in los angeles have gone from a high degree of exposure to a much more understated approach now, you will see the same here. our hopes are that with the level of deportations, and the poverty associated with the deportations, children will see that gang involvement and corruption is not a viable alternative.



Pernel

Nov 9, 2002, 11:55 AM

Views: 37688

    

What about the "ThinnerHeads" & Oaxaca Cops

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Hey,
Another HUGE subject with no REAL answers......
1. What about the amout of thinner sold to juveniles all across Mexico at almost every Ferreteria for less than 25Cents U$?
2. I personally KNOW that in parts of coastal Oaxaca, the 'Mota" dealers often have a female relative boffing a state policeman, who in turn protects that family and SUPPLIES that family as well.
3. How about the mota dealer who sells to you and then sez "Here's my card, in case you have ANY TROUBLE with the police, call me, my brother is a judge in xxxxxxx and has good friends in the PRI"?
4. What about that well armed army partol squad who catches you smoking a joint on the beach, and takes a $100 dollar "Immediate Fine" from you and goes off SMILING?
5. Or the hustler blatantly smoking a joint on the streets of Tijuana, in front policemen, who claims "I grew up in the Zona, they NEVER F*%K with us!
6. These are ALL TRUE stories and they go on and on.....

Praying to the Virgen of Guadelupe for Justice,
Pernel S Thyseldew
www.digthatcrazyfarout.com



tony ferrell

Nov 9, 2002, 8:56 PM

Views: 37628

    

Tabloid Randy in AGS] You want an answer? Can you handle an answer??

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Just like a tabloid you post a eye catching title,
claim to have verification and present nothing.
What exactly are you claiming? All the police are
dealing drugs? Some? One? What is your proof?
Do you really want to know what to do? Or are you
still pretending to to be concerned about Mexico by
posting rumors and opinions as fact??
This isn't a flame any more than your post is.
If you have proof then maybe you should do what
you would do in the US when cops here deal drugs.
Call the police, call the newspaper, go to the mayors office. In other words put up or shut up! Then post the results. Then you post will have some meaning.
Don't forget to bring your proof. And please don't
reply with the old conspiracy theory that EVERYONE
in the Mexcian gov't is crooked. Personally I am surprised
at the amount of serious replies you recv'd. tony ferrell



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 10, 2002, 7:04 AM

Views: 37576

    

Re: [tony ferrell] Tabloid Randy in AGS] You want an answer? Can you handle an answer??

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I agree tony, and I am tired of the idea that all Mexican cops are corrupt as well. I would suggest that some are and many are not, the same as in the U.S.

Corruption is always defined in such simplistic terms and unfortunately rumors tend to fan the fire. This whole idea that Mexico has more corruption than every other country tends to grow tiresome. If that's the case, then why do so many Americans live here? Are we to assume that they like corruption? Hardly!



Randy in AGS

Nov 10, 2002, 1:07 PM

Views: 37512

    

My question was a rhetorical question posed to me by the ex-presidente...

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...of a small, picturesque town in los Altos de Jalisco. We were talking over lunch and the ex-presidente, who was a law and order type when he was in office, was exasperated with the situation and basically posed that question to us.

I never said that ALL police & politicians are corrupt in Mexico; what I should have said to clarify to you and the other, more volatile poster above, is that Mexico has a long way to go yet to clean up police corruption and that there is always a new temptation around the corner.

The above poster likes to twist my words around and usually posts juvenile threats; I have learned to ignore him over time, yet he persists! To each his own. I am however reminded about one instance where I said I tire of seeing people with bad 'educacion' (poor manners) throw garbage on the street. He thought I was calling them ignorant, without education. Well, anyone living here or having a good knowledge of Spanish knows the differance between 'mal-educados' and education. Anyway, he/she is a good example of why I don't post in public how to verify this, because frankly there are some real strange cats on these boards (being civil). If you want verification, just e-mail me and I will give you the name of the town and you can go there and ask yourself. Some things in Mexico are true, whether or not you have a website to back it up with.

Thanks for your well thought out and civil responses.



tony ferrell

Nov 10, 2002, 9:43 PM

Views: 37461

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] My question was a rhetorical question posed to me by the ex-presidente...

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Randy,
No one put words in your mouth, I merely asked the
questions. Sorry you feel the need to back away
from your post. You did well to cover your rear by now saying
that it was an ex-presidente who you were quoting.
Which if true, and I repeat IF one wants to believe an
expresidente would openly talk about drug dealing
by the police dept that was under his previous
jurisdiction to a gringo that barely understands spanish. Why aren't you afraid for yor life that you
know police that are doing this? Don't you think
posting your "insider" info to the rest of the world
could be dangerous if they found out? Funny how in the end you tell me to verify it myself.
Seems in reality you have no town, no proof,
that can be verified. Yet it doesn't stop you from
making these claims.

Like the previous poster said this
stuff gets tiresome and frankly I get tired of pointing
out the holes in your story. On the other hand I feel
it is my duty to try to point out obviously bias
misinformation. No one especially me is saying
Mexico is without problems, however I also feel it is
terrible to exagerate and post Mexicos problems. Especially when the country you and I come from
has many of the same problems that we cannot fix ourselves. Just some advice, when you can figure
out how to fix the same problems in the US, try
applying that same fix to Mexico. Then tell us your
conclusion. Until then please spare us your guise
of liking and respecting mexico. It is obvious you
are VERY bias. tony



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 12, 2002, 10:23 AM

Views: 37350

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] My question was a rhetorical question posed to me by the ex-presidente...

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Hello there,

Thank you for your explanation. I’m glad it isn’t assumed that Mexican police are as corrupt as the general public in the U.S. tends to believe, because just like in America, corruption exists within the individual and there are many honorable individuals that live by high moral standards in both the U.S. and Mexico…police included. My problem with some of these sites, is that more American opinion is rendered than actual fact about Mexico. Also, as a Latina, I realize that many of these opinions are based primarily on personal limited experience and a biased perception, much as many Mexicans who cross to the U.S. approach social aspects of the U.S. in the same way.

Sadly, this tends to create a fairly inaccurate view of the subject. For instance, I’ve seen Americans interpret songs done by Latin artists in a completely inaccurate manner, thinking that since they spoke Spanish, they truly understood. Yet, the literal interpretation is so different than the actual meaning. I’ve even read posts here referring to Latinos as a “violent” culture, with some pretty humorous reasoning behind it, and the person posting sent me a private message to “explain further” the reasons he felt we were more violent. What he didn’t assimilate, were the root causes behind some of the violence, such as many of the disparities in lifestyle, economic levels, housing, education, and such a myriad of OTHER reasons that it would paint a clearer picture and make his analogy look rather silly.

Sometimes a site like this is similar to a painting. If you paint a canvas with too few lines, the interpretation of the painting can be based on the observer and vary greatly. Colors in the painting can even be interpreted by various individuals as different moods and change the meaning. I would suggest to you that those of us that grew up with Latin parents might perceive parts of our culture from a very different perspective than an American that even lived in the area for a lengthy time. For instance in the U.S the color yellow, is interpreted as a primary bold color, that often makes people uncomfortable when used in homes and the Latino community often finds the color yellow to be a warm, inviting color, that provides a sense of comfort. Given the two different cultures, the interpretation of a painting using this color could be vastly different. While I feel it’s wonderful that Americans learn our culture and spend time assimilating into it, I think you might find that most psychologists would tell you, that your perspective would often be quite different than ours. This is wonderful though, as we gain the opportunity to see our culture through a whole new set of eyes and learn about ourselves.

This is precisely why I would like to see Mexico explained to others by Mexicans rather than Americans. I think the reality would be vastly different. I do like an American perspective, because it provides an opinion that many other Americans may reach, due to a limited exposure of Latino culture through their life. But I would love to see more Mexicans involved in this site with factual information as well. As an American with Mexican family, I feel I could certainly learn a great deal about Mexico as well. Presently, I’m finding that the clubs I belong to who are primarily Latino, present such a vastly different approach to Mexico, that it’s quite educational.

Marisol



Randy in AGS

Nov 12, 2002, 1:15 PM

Views: 37358

    

Acceptance into Mexican society...

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Hello: Thanks for listening to my explanation. My reason for posting this information was not a blanket condemnation of all Police everywhere in Mexico, but just for the simple fact that I found it interesting that the Police were in on the distribution of drugs, when they should be on the side of right. I should say that the ex-presidente is a cousin of my brother-in law, who was also present at this business lunch as he is an important part of our Dairy Supplement business. My wife was also present, as was the ex-presidente's son and my boss from BCS. This drug dealing did not occur under the ex-presidente's watch; it commenced after he was out of office.

I too am an Estadounidense with a big Mexican family here in Jalisco, Aguascalientes and Queretaro states. I lived and worked for one year in Arandas, a small town of 40,000 in the los Altos region of eastern Jalisco. My family is originally all from this area. It has been a learning and growing experience for me, probably one of the best experiences of my life. We are currently living and working in the beautiful state of Aguascalientes, and nothing (except possibly my ailing Mothers health back in Oregon) could drag us out of this area...nothing! We love it here, and although the city of Aguascalientes is growing and changing rapidly, it is still basically an undiscovered (by Gringos) gem.

I also like to report on the good things that I see here. I like this board for that fact; that I have not met any Gringos yet that live here full time that we can be friends with (I was the only Gringo living in Arandas), so I like to tell this board what I see. Some complain and whine like the above poster; one other poster likes to call my posts drivel. But what keeps me going is a great number of really nice, non bitter folks I have met through e-mail that live here in Mexico, Canada and the USA. I like to help out anyone with what has become a passion for me now, that being Mexico; good, bad or indifferant.

In Arandas, I played on a Soccer team for men over 38 years old (Club Campestre; Liga de Veteranos de Futbol) that garnered second place in los Altos. I should say I had team mates who lived in INFONAVIT, ranchers and businessmen who drove Jaguars; our team cut across socio-economic lines. These former team mates are now lifelong friends. We helped my Aunt out with an annual Christmas Posada that she throws each year for poor kids in Arandas and also helped her out at the Old Folks home where she volunteers. We help where needed; right now it is on the Dairy farms of Jalisco, Aguascalientes and Zacatecas states, where we have started a struggling Dairy Cow Supplement distributorship for a Mexican company based in BCS. I have what must be one of the best jobs in the world!

I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from in my observations. I came to Mexico, and Mexico has changed me for the better.



Gary sculptari

Nov 12, 2002, 2:55 PM

Views: 37322

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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I have been following this post with interest, and I wanted to add a point - in support of the ex-presidente. What he might be trying to communicate, with difficulty, is the movement among important political circles in Canada and US, to legalise/decriminalise marijuana. This will have been discussed at senior political/lawmaker levels in Mexico as well. This cuts across political boundaries - I believe one its strongest proponents, with a popular book on this subject, is a prominent Republican senator. It is a rational study of what could/would happen if government -(the police in a simplistic way) - took over the distribution of marijuana, in much the same way they regulate alcohol and tobacco. The cost savings, the 'society' savings, and the bite out of organised (and not so organised) crime is significant and persuasive.

I am not qualified, or willing, to get into a detailed debate on this subject, I just wanted to communicate that this notion of using police to monitor and control a government regulated soft drug trade has a lot of supporters. One of the most famous warriors of all time said 'know your enemy' and if there is to be a 'war' on drugs, this is a good strategy. This is why, for example, the government controls alcohol and tobacco - they hope they can better influence/control over society - for their own good. Of course the cynics might see it as just another government cash cow - but then again, why not 'tax' the consumers rather than pay out tax $$ for court costs, etc. This summer, the legalisation (government control) of marijuana in Canada came as close as it has ever been to becoming law.

Randy, it would be interesting for you to contact this man again on these issues - maybe buy him that book. It would be unfair to this man's reputation, and his family, if you took this in an entirely negative light. It is as scandolous as if the man said 'I love kids' and you took this to mean he is a pedophile! I would clear this up for your own reputation as much as ex-presidente's - as a new businessman, you don't need to make powerful enemies with government connections.


Heres an interesting link

http://religion-cults.com/drugs/prominent.htm

Fox himself is on record for decriminalising


(This post was edited by Gary sculptari on Nov 12, 2002, 3:09 PM)



Todd DF

Nov 12, 2002, 3:17 PM

Views: 37314

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Acceptance into Mexican society...

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Hey Randy......what part of Oregon are you from?? I'm from Dallas (near Salem) now living in D.F.



tony ferrell

Nov 12, 2002, 3:40 PM

Views: 37311

    

What you really were trying to say.....

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Thanks for the explanation. It is now clear that you
posted the claim of an ex-presidente (read politician) who claims that illegal drug dealing was
not done under his watch but under someone elses
term in office. This ex-presidente is a cousin of your brother-in law. I think I understand why you are
so sensitive to my further questioning. Sorry.

In the future please think twice about posting
family based rumors as fact! I know JenniferR allows
you alot of leeway but you should be more up front
about the source of your "facts".

Just a reading suggestion, you might want look up
some of the documented corruption of the PRI
party in Mexico. It will give you a better understanding
of the relationship between Mexico's politics and police. tony



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 12, 2002, 4:19 PM

Views: 37290

    

Re: [Gary sculptari] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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God help us all! The benefits?

As a Latina, I feel that Marijuana is a tool that is used by many governments for social genocide. It is distributed to keep economically challenged areas depressed and basically complacent with inequities. If you keep the "little people" high and functioning at a minimal level, you don't have any uprising or disrest. Instead of nurturing a human need for reaching their potential, you nurture a chemical need for feeling numb. Not exactly the stuff that success stories are made of, eh?

One of the principles my husband and I teach the gang members that leave gangs, is what REAL Latin pride is...pride in yourself, your culture, and your family! Nobody that has a high degree of pride in themself, needs a plant to numb their emotions or thoughts. It only numbs the painful experiences temporarily and drains one's pocket of financial resources better used to help one's family...especially in Mexico, where financial resources are less available than in the U.S. We believe ANY drugs offered in minority communities are a vehicle to control that community and negate their capability to reach their potential...therefore it is a form of genocide.

A better answer in our minds, is to nurture the need to learn and feed curiosity. When you are busy doing this, you rarely have time for inconsequential things like pot. And with the nurturing of knowledge, one learns that they hunger for more and more knowledge and suddenly, you have a community that has successful contributing people.

The success stories we've had with gang members involved leaving the mota behind and taking pride in their health, mind, body and spirit. The sad stories we have involve continued need for drugs, including marijuana, and the accepted laziness and denial that accompanies this drug. Many of these kids end up crossing the border and going to prison or even getting shot, because they choose a lifestyle that is simple, easy, relaxed, and also dangerous. Why? Because pot is mentally addictive and with prolonged daily use, causes a lack of ambition. judgement, and the ability to take on challenges.

I love my culture too much to accept the legalization of this very destructive substance!



Randy in AGS

Nov 12, 2002, 6:02 PM

Views: 37268

    

Home in Oregon

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Hey Todd: I am out of the La Grande area in rural Union County. I have been in Mexico for almost two years now, with a break in the summer of 2001 to work fighting Forest Fires to make some Honeymoon money. When we go back to Oregon (to retire or just to live), I would like to live in either Wallowa or Baker County.

I love it here in AGS though. This is (for me) the best part of Mexico. A clean, safe and historic city ringed by beautiful mountain scenery. I just discovered a Sierra within one hour of AGS city, and my wife and I are going camping together for the first time later this week. She has never been camping, so it should be quite an experience for her, especially in the freezing mountain air at night now.

I have some friends from Dallas who went to Salt Creek Baptist Church. I always thought it would be a nice town to live in.

How did you end up in DF, and what do you do there?



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 13, 2002, 4:09 AM

Views: 37298

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Acceptance into Mexican society...

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Rancy,

One question. If you have family that is from Mexico, why do you refer to yourself as a "Gringo?" I've never met any Latinos that did that. Is your family through marriage possibly?

Anyway, it sounds like you've had some wonderful opportunities to experience Mexican culture. The fact that you are concerned about the spread of drugs or the sale of drugs by police does not offend me at all!



Todd DF

Nov 13, 2002, 7:15 AM

Views: 25684

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Home in Oregon

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Hi Randy,

We used to go hunting outside of LaGrande when I was growing up. My dad and brothers still do. Funny to hear about Salt Creek BC again. Dallas is actually a nice little town and just a short drive to the coastal areas.

When I moved out of Oregon I first went to San Diego for 15 years then moved down here last year to start a new business. I'm a distributor for a line of US made inkjet cartridges, toners and print media.

Have fun going camping as that is one of my favorite past times. Would love to make it up that way sometime and experience AGS.........good cheese!!

Take care, Todd



Randy in AGS

Nov 13, 2002, 3:13 PM

Views: 25688

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Acceptance into Mexican society...

|
Hi Marisol: Yes, I am a Gringo of 100% Swiss extraction (grandparents on both sides were born in Switzerland).

My wife is from the los Altos region of eastern Jalisco, and we have family there and in the states of Aguascalientes and Queretaro. I met her while on vacation to the colonial cities of Mexico, while in GDL. I decided to take a mid-life break and study Spanish for a few months in GDL. We started dating, and now are married, with a little one hopefully on the way soon, as we are not getting any younger!

Thanks for realizing I was just sharing an experience that I had, and that there is nothing more to it than that. I assure you that the story is, unfortunately, true. The ex-presidente is a very, very serious man who made alot of enemies in his day because he stood up for what was right.



tony ferrell

Nov 13, 2002, 3:34 PM

Views: 25687

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] What is offensive...

|
Marisol is Randy's thinly disguised dislike of
Mexico. By questioning his "facts", he gets upset
because what he really posted was lunchtime family
rumors. He is not at all concerned about the police
dealing drugs. He was offered a answer, but won't
do anything to the situation - if it even exists.
any chance he gets to post hearsay he does and
pretends it is fact. As a Latino I don't appreciate
the continued slander of Mexico by people who have
come from a place that is just as bad in it own way.

You won't see me posting "What to do when the
US Border Patrol and Police are worst the the Mexican
police!" when in fact I could and have a family story
to back it up. Hasta, tony



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 13, 2002, 4:56 PM

Views: 25668

    

Re: [tony ferrell] What is offensive...

|
tony,

the U.S. Border patrol makes the Mexican police look like saints...I agree! We should do a whole thread on them. I have so many stories, including the fact that I've even filed a sexual harrassement charge against one of the border patrol for telling me, "You don't have to live down there if you go out with me."

As I said to him, with my income and investment portfolio, I hardly HAVE to live in Mexico, it's a logical choice...and told him I could EASILY forgoe the little luxury of dating a mental featherweight, who settled for a position where he harrassed people in lieu of having any self respect.

I also grow tired of the slandering of Mexican officials. I don't know about this person, as I wonder why he insists he's Latino and calls himself a "gringo" which would not be my definition of myself, but I salute him if he can help keep drug dealing in Mexico to a minimum.

Marisol.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 13, 2002, 5:07 PM

Views: 25672

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Acceptance into Mexican society...

|
I see, so you are not Latino...and I thought that was odd. It doesn't matter to me, I just found it curious.

I don't know which ex-presidente you are talking about, nor do I care if he was part of the P.R.I. because they were the root of many of the problems in Mexico. Also, I'm probably the last one to be impressed by who people know, because of where I come from and some of the people I've worked with, but I guess you are intrigued with his position.

Apparently, you and Tony have some squabble, and I'm not prepared to take either side, because I have no idea what this all is based on. I'm simply here to post my own peculiar take on things in Mexico. If "ex-presidente" is a kind and compassionate man about the people of Mexico, then he should wonder why the P.R.I. has taken so many of their assets and utilized them to finance some of the corruption that is being removed by the current "presidente" Vicente Fox.



la rana

Nov 14, 2002, 6:09 AM

Views: 25678

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

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Ah yes Marisol, I agree with you. But I also agree with others too. I haven't really said anything here have I? Let me clarify. Your conspiracy theory is just that, a theory. I respect your views, but all the literature out there points to the benefits of legalization outweighing the downside. EDUCATION is the way, not criminalization. When you put a person in jail for smoking pot, chances are you are ruining his life. He will come away from this experience with a more currupted mind than he went in with. Look at Amsterdam, their approach works so much better. When you criminalize desire for anything, you romanticize it also. Education really is the way. If the conspiracy theory is correct, then the seed has been planted. The only way to undo this is to educate, or re-educate. Look at tobacco, it's far worse. How many people die from tobacco use...so many, they are a burden on our society, the sick that is. Criminalize that, silly right? Look into the history of the DuPont family from the East coast in the USA and their role in the criminilazition of hemp in the 30's. It's all about the paper making process and their NEW chemicals that turned wood pulp into paper products. The only way that they were able to accomplish the replacement of hemp paper with their new form was to make hemp illegal. There is a real conspiracy theory! Anyway, I am rambling. I do respect your feelings Marisol. They come from good intent. But I feel that you have drawn the incorrect conclusion from them. With all good wishes to all....Rob.



Randy in AGS

Nov 14, 2002, 1:20 PM

Views: 25642

    

Where did I say he was a PRI member?

|
Hello: Let me explain a couple of points that I think you missed, if you will allow me.

1) I am just relating what is happening in a SMALL TOWN in the los Altos region of eastern Jalisco. This information was relayed to us byt the ex-mayor during the course of a business lunch. This town has a population of only 25,000.

2) The ex-presidente (ex-mayor) is not the ex-presidente of Mexico, and where did I ever say he was part of the PRI party? He is a PAN member, in an historically PRI stronghold. He was elected on a law and order platform, and when he was in office, the cantinas closed early, littering was punishable with a hefty fine and the towns centro historico zone was preserved in perpetuity.

3) I am not at all impressed by his ex-presidente credentials; I am however impressed by the fact he is a genuinely nice and serious man, one who really cares about what is happening to his town.

4) I agree wholeheartedly with you about the PRI and how they basically plundered the country under the guise of the 'revolution' for 70 years. But the voting public are also to blame at least partly for not voting the PRIstas out before.

5) I have been nothing but open and helpful on these forums regarding what I like and dislike about Mexico. I really do love Mexico now, and I really love my Mexican family; they are simply some of the best people anywhere. I like to write about what I see here in Mexico, be it positive or negative. 'tony' has hounded me just for the simple fact that his/her typical Mexico doesn't jive with mine; like Jennifer Rose says, Mexico exists on many planes of socio-economic existence, from Campesinos to the Jet-Set.

6) Sorry if you find my perspectives somewhat less interesting just because I am a WASP male (I know that is not the PC thing to be at the moment in the USA). I am very proud, however, of my Swiss heritage. When I am in Oregon, I like to take in my favorite Swiss festival along with many relatives and friends. I am just as proud to be of Swiss heritage as many are here to be of Mexican heritage (like you). But many make the mistake that just because they are part Mexican, that makes them an instant expert on Mexico; wrong. I am of full Swiss extraction, but I am not as pompous to think that makes me an expert on anything Swiss.

I look forward to your posts, and I hope I cleared up some things for you.



tony ferrell

Nov 14, 2002, 1:41 PM

Views: 25633

    

Read Again the Post

|
Hola Marisol,
First of all this guy is a gringo from the ground up.
Like he posted, he is Swiss-Amer from a small town
in Oregon where apparently there is no crime, rap
music, drugs everything is beautiful.
Without drawing you too much into this because Randy
and I have crossed words many times.
Read his first
post, he claims to be talking to a client who is an ex-presidente. Later comes clean by saying it is actually
a relative by marriage. He only admits this after I
question him. He claims to have verification. (news story? ) Then
tells me to verify it myself. In the end he says it
was a rhetorical question posed by a relative who
happens to be an ex politico. And of course his relative
was a very honest politician, who made alot of enemies
because he was honest, but now the system
is corrupt. How Randy knows this after being in Mexico
for only 2 years is amazing. Randy has a history of posting the
stereo typical rumors that most Latinos in the US
have heard their whole lives. This gringo thinks he has this
"right" because he is married to a mexicana and
lives there. He makes a point of not telling the whole
story and I make a point of asking for it.
As a Latino who has been traveling to Mexico for over
25 years, married to a Mexicana, have land in Mexico,
my kids have dual nationality and live with my in laws
for 1-2 months every year, I feel it is my duty to
squash this slander. If he takes it personally, good,
because I wish he would stop.

Also note in the end he backs down and admits to doing nothing
which to me shows he is more concerned with posting garbage about Mexico than any real concern
about the social problems.
To his credit he does post some good stuff about
his experiences, but he is out to lunch when it comes to
understanding the culture and problems of both the US and Mexico. tony



Georgia


Nov 14, 2002, 5:24 PM

Views: 25621

    

Go for the US Border patrol, Marisol!

| Private Reply
When I returned to the US with my younger children who are adopted (four of them, from Bogota) the greeting was underwhelming. First, the not-very-charming lady said I had written my address wrong. I looked. Nope. Not wrong. Why, she asked, was there no number? Ah, because we live on a dead-end, dirt road far out in the country. And they let you adopt four children? Such courtesy. Then, she looked at the kids' credentials and health reports. Two of them had ear problems: these children are defective she announced to everyone in the room. I said, well, look my teeth aren't so hot and my eyes are going, but my husband keeps me anyway. We all have problems. What a witch! We almost missed our connecting flight. However, it seemed to provide entertainment for everyone around us while she tried to humiliate us.

I really don't like these people.



Sherrill

Nov 14, 2002, 11:12 PM

Views: 25612

    

Benefits of legalizing pot

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Marisol, You wrote a very heart-felt and devoted letter. I could not agree with you more. Now here comes the BUT. And it is that the buying/selling of drugs is the backbone of black-market economy and it is a huge one. If the need is there, the product will be provided at any cost and with no benefits to the community. Unregulated entrepreneurism is what leads to violence and more unregulated spending on the part of government to contain it. Who is winning he war on drugs? Look at the gang warfare during US liquor prohibition. Legalizing marijuana is not going to create an increase in use but might create a new job market where some of the profits are put back into the community. It is a commodity. Legalization will take the glamour out of the product. There will be accountability for quality, price control. Price really to grow this crop is low. They don't call it weed without reason. Phillip Morris-whoops forgot they are changing their name to something more metaphysical and distancing themselves from tobacco-will package joints. The problem is, as you wrote, deeper than pot and it is not my intent to minimalize it. Too many children with no hope, no concept of a future. These kids are going to find something to sniff, to smoke, to snort; legal or not because they feel desperate. So maybe legalizing pot might break some of the chain that binds them.



scott

Nov 15, 2002, 9:32 PM

Views: 25574

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Acceptance into Mexican society...

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Marisol,

I have a question too. Why do you call yourself latina instead of just admitting you are from Mexican descent?



tony ferrell

Nov 20, 2002, 11:06 AM

Views: 25558

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Where did I say he was a PRI member?

|
First sorry about the late reply.Hello: Let me explain a couple of points that I think you missed, if you will allow me.

1) I am just relating what is happening in a SMALL TOWN in the los Altos region of eastern Jalisco. This information was relayed to us byt the ex-mayor during the course of a business lunch. This town has a population of only 25,000.

1a. You are not relating what happened in a small
town, you are merely stating hearsay from your
inlaw. I just wanted a clarification of the source of
your 'verifiable facts'.

2) The ex-presidente (ex-mayor) is not the ex-presidente of Mexico, and where did I ever say he was part of the PRI party? He is a PAN member, in an historically PRI stronghold. He was elected on a law and order platform, and when he was in office, the cantinas closed early, littering was punishable with a hefty fine and the towns centro historico zone was preserved in perpetuity.

2a. I merely suggested reading about the relationship
between politicos and the police so you can educate
yourself. You seem to (naively?) think that running
on a "law and order" platform makes corruption go
away. Basically the mayor is going to only as much
power as the people, police let him. To say that a
mayor can know and control every police action is
again naive. So is the claim that the single term of
a mayor is all that is needed to "the towns centro historico zone was preserved in perpetuity". The state
and fed gov't really have that power. Nice claim though.

3) I am not at all impressed by his ex-presidente credentials; I am however impressed by the fact he is a genuinely nice and serious man, one who really cares about what is happening to his town.

3a. No argument here. My comments were made to
show that the "facts" were really a ex politicians
claims, not what most of us consider as hard facts.

4) I agree wholeheartedly with you about the PRI and how they basically plundered the country under the guise of the 'revolution' for 70 years. But the voting public are also to blame at least partly for not voting the PRIstas out before.

4a. It would be nice to think that the PRI is all bad
or all good. The relationship between Mexicans and
the PRI is much more complex than the terms like
"dictatorship" the US press uses to explain the PRI.
You have to remember that Mexico has a wide range
of parties, unlike the US, and voting out one party
can have MAJOR consequenses. Voting Rep or Demo
in the US doesn't have the same implications.

Your description of a "law and order platform" shows
that. For many, closing the cantinas early has little
to do with law and order and more to do with lack of
freedom. I have talked to many people about politics
in Mexico, IMHO some of the basic thinking is nothing like the US. For ex I have heard some people
voted for the corrupt PRI only because the next
party might be ALOT worst. As americans we can't
relate.


5) I have been nothing but open and helpful on these forums regarding what I like and dislike about Mexico. I really do love Mexico now, and I really love my Mexican family; they are simply some of the best people anywhere. I like to write about what I see here in Mexico, be it positive or negative. 'tony' has hounded me just for the simple fact that his/her typical Mexico doesn't jive with mine; like Jennifer Rose says, Mexico exists on many planes of socio-economic existence, from Campesinos to the Jet-Set.

6) Sorry if you find my perspectives somewhat less interesting just because I am a WASP male (I know that is not the PC thing to be at the moment in the USA). I am very proud, however, of my Swiss heritage. When I am in Oregon, I like to take in my favorite Swiss festival along with many relatives and friends. I am just as proud to be of Swiss heritage as many are here to be of Mexican heritage (like you). But many make the mistake that just because they are part Mexican, that makes them an instant expert on Mexico; wrong. I am of full Swiss extraction, but I am not as pompous to think that makes me an expert on anything Swiss.

5a, 6a. I don't agree on how helpful you have been
on this forum. Some of the stuff stated as facts I
question. Some of the stuff posted is basically the
same old stereotyping that Mexicans and Mex Ams have heard
their whole lives. All I ask is to state up front how
you get your "facts", people can decide from there
whether you are posting fact, fiction, opinion or
hearsay. For ex if you are connected to a rich
politically connected family, state it. People will get
a better understanding of your perspective.

Im sorry there isn't a constant influx a Swiss into
your area. If there was you would be able to get a
better understanding of your Swiss culture. You
would be able to see keep track of how the culture
changes both in the mother country and how the
Swiss change once they get to the US. Without this
influx, there is no contact with your roots and the
culture eventually withers away.

I have (kept close to my roots) for most of my
whole life but this doesn't make
me an expert, just a guy with close ties to my
roots, who wants those roots to grow, not get cut
off. Tony

I look forward to your posts, and I hope I cleared up some things for you.

Saludos desde Aguascalientes, Randy



Raider

Nov 21, 2002, 7:41 PM

Views: 25517

    

Re: [Randy in AGS] Acceptance into Mexican society...

|
Hi Randy ! Congrats on the bambino..! as for the corruption in Mexico, it's no different (trust me on this one ) than New Orleans cops or Chicago or Miami or a myriad of southern towns where the local powers that be get away with murder.Atlanta just convicted a local sheriff candidate for murdering his opponent..power corrupts, just look at all the examples from the Dialo case in NYC.....ad nauseum.Point is, even our US gov has been involved in drug dealing, remember a little case called Iran-Contra? our American jails are replete with ex-law officers in prison for all kinds of misdeeds, from fraud(three cases going on in my area ) to falsifying evidence....so, get that deer in the headlights look out of your face just because some Cacique got caught doing biz with the enemy( they tend to have the same grandparents anyway) Yeah, keep posting; just don't be so naive.....BTW most Swiss extraction buddies of mine come from Minnesota..



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 22, 2002, 3:31 PM

Views: 25487

    

Re: [scott] Acceptance into Mexican society...

|
Scott,

I have a question for you...why are you so interested in how I define myself?

In response to your question, I am not simply Mexican, but I am mixed as I've said before. Therefore, I feel that Latina defines me more correctly...since half of my family is from the U.S.

Mexican to me, refers to people that have grown up in Mexico, which I have not. Like Tony Ferrell, I've simply grown up around Mexicans my entire life, so that the culture is not knew to me, but the country is.

How do you define yourself?



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 22, 2002, 3:33 PM

Views: 25492

    

Re: [la rana] What can you do when the Police are the drug dealers in a town?

|
La Rana,

I would like to submit a little poema in response to your theory that distribution of drugs to minorities is not social genocide:


Maestro


Maestro Quvole, vato yo soy el nino
the one who you said was a travieso
the one you claimed caused all the pleito
the one who long ago you did not care for
even though you were my maestro
Fijate, a lo que ha pasado
it's been a long time pero no ando CALMAO
see remember the day I got into a fight
con otro nino who's color white he told his story,
I said "Siempre me busca." you said to me "!El espanol no se
habla !"
so I got in trouble for speaking spanish
and my interest in school suddenly VANISHED
pero to make things worst,
you called my papi and said I was to BLAME
and so he disciplined me with physical PAIN
see Mexican parents repsect authority
my word against yours....
Y'asi que sufri pues el tiempo paso
and things got no BETTER
it seemed every week you sent home a letter
telling my parents I was bad in class
little did you know I felt like an ass como un mudito,
I sat all alone listening to a language i did not speak at home and
just because I found the curriculum boring you insisted the knowledge
I was not YEARNING
and just because I spoke with a Mexican ACCENT
you insited that in wood shop my time be spent best
and just cause I wore a raiders cap to be HIP
you insisted I was on a gangster trip and,
finally, because my skin was BROWN
Se reian los gringos and they put me DOWN and you maestro,
you could not see why I got mad cuando se burlaban de MI
but what hurt more was the comment you made
you said I was lazy cause no attention I PAID
yet the truth was I was afraid tenia verguensa
and so quiet I stayed
those early years really fucked up my MIND
I was confused
and no one I could find who understood me at your racist SCHOOL the
place where they treated me as though I was a fool
and so open your eyes, maestro,
what do you see? an addict, a convict, a loud talkin spic
a lazy Chicano who don't give a shit
an animal, criminal, psychopath cholo
a mal-nourished kid who would never grow a mexican boy who coud
never read and who even today with an accent he speaks another
homeboy who never got far
a drunken thief who breaks into your CAR
a farm workin mexican with eight kids and a wife
a convicted rapist serving 20 to life!
pues sabes que, teach, you were correct
cause all the above you did expect
see I rose to the level of your expectation
fijate teacher I'm your creation


By Juan R. Avitia

But if that doesn't convince you that there is a dedicated effort to disrupt the progress of Latino communities, then let me ask you this...Why was the C.I.A. involved in the purchase and distribution of drugs in the U.S....all of which was distributed in minority neighborhoods when it crossed the borders? Sorry, but between the poema above and the C.I.A.'s efforts, I'm not convinced that your theory is a correct one, albeit I don't feel everyone is involved in trying to help the social genocide of Latinos.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 22, 2002, 5:37 PM

Views: 25477

    

Re: [tony ferrell] Read Again the Post

|
Tony,

This whole forum is for Americans wishing to learn about Mexico, not for Mexicans that already know about it. I agree with you that the best source of information on this subject is provided by Mexican nationals rather than other Americans, because as I said before, an American perspective is a veiled one and often misleading.

It's difficult for anyone to define a culture if they haven't lived in the skin of that culture or felt the feelings that are directed towards members of that culture. I also agree with you that growing up in a family with parents from Mexico probably provides you with a great deal more incite than not having any cultural ties at all, especially when you are talking about being brown vs. white and the barriers of that. You learn first hand what your family traditions are, how others perceive you, and what REAL barriers and obstacles you face being from that culture, especially when it is a minority culture with certain boundaries projected towards your family culture.

Americans come to Mexico with their own set of prejudices and agendas, just as Chicanos and other folks do, and while they learn a great deal by living in Mexico, many of them walk away with an idea that a few years in Mexico provides them with a complete understanding. Heck, I'm half Mexican and I don't even presume that, which is why I learn from Mexicans that have grown up here.

I submit that a person that hasn't grown up as a minority could not possibly understand the limitations that many of us have projected at us. I certainly don't understand the limitations that Mexican Indians have projected at them, merely because of the way I look. I don't deal with the barriers they do. Even the poems we grow up reading, which most Americans aren't exposed to, dealing with questions about skin color, eye color, and hair texture, are foreign subjects to those that haven't had these issues.

Still, with all of that, I like to read these posts, because it provides me with another perspective which helps me in learning about myself and my culture. One thing I have learned here, is that many Americans seem to feel that justifying legalization of pot in Mexico is a good thing, which I completely disagree with. I surmise they probably haven't been acquainted with the negative side of the distribution of drugs, where people without hope are drawn to a life of selling drugs to eek out a normal living, buying false documents to stay in a country that would rather throw them out, and try to get by in a world where they feel their options are limited because of their cultural background.

If you haven't seen this seedy side of life, everything looks rosy when you minimalize the effects of pot and other substances. The discussions here can prove that. I often snicker when reading the perspectives, because I realize many have for the most part lived middle-class lives and probably never knew an illegal until they moved to Mexico, where we grow up knowing so many it's rediculous.

Many Americans don't even know a family that has been divided by the border, with brothers and sisters living in two separate countries, because a father is American and a mother is Mexican and some of the children have papers and others don't. They don't know the sadness of watching a friend sneek across the border to get medical treatment for a liver that has been damaged and watching the sadness of the children that can't cross the border to see their mother die in her last days of life...because the U.S. can't process the paperwork fast enough. What they don't realize is, this is part of Mexico too.

Mexico is not just about knowing 'el-presidente' or having an FM3, or an occassional policeman asking for 'mordida.' It's about the integral part of families, with very REAL issues that exist both inside the borders of Mexico and often across the borders. Like the U.S., Mexico is much more complex than the simple questions asked here. They are easily answered by anyone. Even our history is more complex than that.

This was illustrated very well by the gentleman that asked me why I call myself a Latina, instead of saying I'm from Mexican descent. I surmise he has very little awareness of any of the movements geared to promote Latino pride, or he wouldn't have asked that. To some, it's surprising that Latinos have such pride and intellectual comprehension, because it was widely accepted in the U.S. by majority cultures for so long, that Latinos were a sub-culture. This is why many here presume to explain Mexico, when they simply have a fringe understanding. At least, this is my opinion on why people come here and tell others about Mexico...when they are not Mexican at all.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 22, 2002, 7:08 PM

Views: 25469

    

Re: [Sherrill] Benefits of legalizing pot

|
Sherrill,

Let me answer all your questions on legalizing drugs with another poema by a young girl in a gang...

I wish shed understand that i grew up way to fast
Look at all the shyt that i went through in the past
Im 17 years old but i feel 75
cuz since i was a child i had 2 fight 2 stay alive
Now she thinks i should act older but i wanna act my age
do what other teenagers do
Why is that so strange?
Forty years ago kidz werent allowed 2 act this way
they didnt know about the things we have 2 go through everyday
Gangs, street violence, drugs and sex
Never knowing what will happen next
If its this way 4 us think of how it will be 4 our children
what kinda shitty world will they have 2 live in ?
will our kidz die off like bugs , from the gang bangin and the drugs?
why are death and violence so common that we have no more fears ?
why do we often cry lonly neglected tears?
Cant we change the way it all is
If not for ourselves than at least For Our Kidz.

~*La Blue Eyez*~

This is why I'm opposed to legalization of drugs! I couldn't have said it better! God bless that young girl! I hope she continues to mentor those with bad information, like the idea that we should legalize something that is set up to commit social genocide.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 22, 2002, 8:57 PM

Views: 25451

    

Re: [Georgia] Go for the US Border patrol, Marisol!

|
Drive through the border almost every day to go to work...which is why we moved to a border town. The I.N.S. is amusing at times. Questions they ask?

Where were you born? Simple enough! The U.S.
How were you born? Okay, I'll bite. But do I REALLY have to explain the concept of reproduction to an adult?

Please say the Pledge of Allegiance to prove you are a U.S. citizen. You got me la migra! Put the cuffs on now and send me back to Mejico, cause even though I was born and raised in the U.S. I can't for the life of me remember how that goes. Of course, I haven't had occurance to say it in oh, let's see, 10 or more years? And the last time was at a ball game I think. But then, I suppose my teacher WAS right back in grammar school when I learned the damn thing. It WILL come in useful. I just didn't realize that reciting it verbatim made me a U.S. citizen. Mental note to self...Americans now must take classes in what makes us American...LOL

Next approach...Your jeep smells like fresh paint. Well gee ocifer, I just had it painted! Oh, so you now say I have to pay import taxes on that paint job? Why? Because you THINK I got it painted in Tijuana. Can I provide you with a receipt showing the place that painted it in Chula Vista, California? Oh God, I just pissed him off! Off to secondary with me!

What? You don't like my passport picture? Well that makes two of us, because I think I look like shit that day.

What do I have under the tonneau cover in the back of my jeep? Two straw men, I say. She hears two "STRONG" men and freaks out, only to find two scarecrows on sticks for Halloween at my office. Off to secondary with me, because la migra has hearing problems.

With symphonic music playing lightly as I approach the gate...La migra scowls and barks out "turn off that damned music!" I can't help but wonder if Beethoven would like his reference to the piece but turn it off. What's under the cover...recalling the straw men incident I say nothing (which is true) Take the cover off, he barks. But you can open the rear door and see everything. Take the cover off, he barks louder. I open the rear tailgate door, to display an empty white area, without even a rug to hide anything. "I'll let you go this time, but next time take the damned cover off!" I can't help but wonder if his hemorrhoids are acting up as I drive off.

Yup, I think I understand how you felt Georgia! They aren't my favorite or most highly respected group of folks either!



scott

Nov 22, 2002, 10:56 PM

Views: 25474

    

You are American

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Marisol,

You're right, I don't have very much awareness about latino pride. To be honest, I didn't even know what the word latino meant until a few months ago. I also learnt the words chicano and hispanic.

I am from Canada, and admittedly have almost zero understanding of 'latino' culture in the USA. I have read a little bit on line, but I don't know much. After I saw someone get their panties in a knot over the 'two weyes going to East LA' joke, I spent several hours over the next day or two trying to learn what East LA was, and why people thought it was racist. I also learnt that apparently there is a small latino community in Toronto, which I read a bit about.

So... I had no concept of what the terms latino, chicano, or hispanic meant until a few months ago. Where I am from in Canada, I would just call you spanish. "I met this girl Marisol, she's spanish. I think she's from Mexico or something.". The word latino is totally foreign to me. Of course I have heard it many times, but never really understood it completely.

You asked how I would describe myself. I am Canadian. 100% Canadian. Sure my family must have immigrated from somewhere, at some point, but I was born in Canada, raised in Canada, and I don't think of myself in any other way. I don't go around calling myself kiwi because all of my moms immediate family are New Zealanders (citizens at least). I didn't grow up there, and would never pretend to be New Zealandish in any way. I don't even know where the rest of my family is from, and frankly don't really care a whole lot. I am Canadian, and don't try to cling to any sub culture. I think my Grandpa said he's french. I don't have a clue where my grandmothers family is from. Maybe Irish, I don't know.

If my mother had filled out a one page form, and paid $20 or something, before my birth, I would be a New Zealand citizen. If I had brothers or sisters, they would get the citizenship now. So lets just say I came thiiiiiiis close to being New Zealandish. But, I would never in a million years, having grown up in a different country, claim to be Kiwi or know anything about the countries intrinsic details. I've been there, but what does that mean. Nothing really, unless you actually grew up there or spent any significant amount of time there.

This why I think that if you were born in the United States, grew up in the United States, then you're American. It's not fair to consider yourself anything else. Your loyalty should be to the USA, you should be proud of your country, and not pretend like "I'm really Latina/Mexican but have an American passport and happen to live here". You should first and foremost consider yourself American, and refer to yourself as American. If it is absolutely necessary, in the context of the situation to state your family's background, then say they your family comes from Mexican descent, and thats why you are qualified to state your opinion.

In Canada, we are taught that we are all Canadian. And this is how it should be. Multiculturalism isn't going to work if we all feel more proud of our ancestors countries. If you think Lebanon is so great, and first and foremost associate with that country, then go back. Otherwise, be proud to be Canadian, and be proud to state that as your nationality. Most people, I would just consider them Canadian, no matter whether they are black, white, red yellow or green. But when I meet people who insist on calling themselves Lebanese, or Arab, or something, even though they totally grew up in Canada, since they were two or three, then it really hurts me. It does, because I think people should be proud of their adopted country.

To me, the term latino seems very artificial. I feel more comfortable with the word hispanic, in the same sense that you might use caucasian. But latino, its more like the word "Aryan", in such a way that when you use it, you implicitly imply connotations of pride. You seem proud to use that word. And you get away with it, because you can be thought of as a so called minority. But god forbid I called myself Aryan. Whats the difference? While you're talking about Latino Pride, what the hell would people think if I went around talking about White Pride, or Aryan pride, or American and Canadian descendents of european origin pride? Eh? All hell would break loose, and thats why I kind of have a problem with your usage of the word Latina. Just consider yourself American, please.... I would totally accept you as Canadian no matter where your parents came from. As long as you don't pretend you are really from <insert country here>, and just happen to be a citizen of this, your adopted homeland.

That drives me crazy like you wouldn't believe. Well maybe you can believe, seeing as it means enough to me to take the time to type all this out. I've just had a serious problem about this thing with people refusing to accept themselves as "Canadian", instead of their parents homeland and just happening to be citizens of Canada, for a long time. Where I am from, it was the Lebanese and Arab people who did this. We didn't have many Mexicans, or Latin Americans around. But keep in mind I am Canadian, from a South-Western Ontario city of 300,000 people, and my experiences are probably totally different than those of many Americans. But, I'm just sharing my perspective, as you said you like to hear them from other people.



Georgia


Nov 23, 2002, 7:21 AM

Views: 25456

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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Scott, I really like your post a lot; it's totally honest and explains your point of view in a completely respectful way. But, it's clear that you have no idea what it is to be a minority in a given culture: which is fine. It's hard to imagine something you don't have to bear. In the USA it was -- and is still -- all the sport among certain classes of people to denigrate others because their skin is brown, or because they have an accent, or because they practice a different religion from theirs, or because they dress differently.

Here's an example: when my youngest, who is Colombian (by birth, and, at the time, by citizenship) started school in the US, one of the children in her class told her she would never marry because "people like her" were like puppies: cute when they are little, but they grow up to be real dogs. Now, believe this or not, but my daughter's little girlfriend thought this was truly helpful advice! If she realized how hurtful it was to my daughter, she would have been shocked. She was repeating what she had been taught by her parents. She meant no animosity or harm towards my daughter. She was her best friend.

That was but one incident. It took years for my daughter to realize how beautiful and exotic and special she is. Over those years I have worked to instill pride in her for being latina. This year she lived and studied in Guadalajara for an extended period of time and came to realize that what she is, is just fine, thank you. She now is proud of who she is.

Intolerance is what breeds this need to identify with one's ancestry. It validates the individual in a culture that is intolerant of differences.

I understand your point of view totally. Please understand the point of view of minorities in a given culture.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 23, 2002, 8:24 AM

Views: 25424

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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Scott,

I love your answer, because it's so cliche. You see, when I don't identify with America only for some very solid reasons. There is a quote, "Justice for All," which is part of the pledge of allegiance. I used to buy that until I realized there wasn't justice for all. As a matter of fact, if you are Latino in the U.S., there probably isn't a high degree of justice AT ALL.

We grow up having this ingrained in our heads by the way we are treated and I learned this first hand. I heard the wonderful jokes in the work place about how "lazy Mexicans were." I worked full time and obtained a college education, only to find that there were actually company cultures in this land of "justice for all" that did not allow "people of Mexican descent" to rise up the ladder after a certain level. I was stopped on the streets randomly, having never committed a crime other than jay walking in my life and frisked. I was even forced to listen to U.S. police officers make racist comments. So I opted to label myself with a label that OUR culture created, rather than the one that majority culture created long before and now that pisses off those that want me to feel a more oppressed rather than proud.. Frankly, guess how I feel about that?

Your agenda in asking me about why I labeled myself Latino was crystal clear from the beginning, so I wanted to allow the option to prove it. Frankly, identifying yourself as one majority culture as opposed to another one is your business. But don't jump on the pedestal with me and tell me what I should feel or call myself, because I DO know about my culture and what the Mexican culture has endured both in the U.S. and in Mexico for years! And as you said, you don't, which strikes me odd, since an ounce of curiosity which usually accompanies intelligence would have cured some of that.

The fact that YOU prefer Hispanic to Latino, is clearly the reason I choose Latino. I am proud of my cultural roots and affiliations and I'm not about to let anyone define what I should or should not be proud of. The fact that it drives people like you crazy is just icing on the cake. I have no issues with White pride either, as long as either Latino or White pride is not used to degrade others. I do not do this.

As far as understanding Latino culture, I would say growing up in it and with it all around me, would probably provide me with a greater incite than one that has never lived as a Latino.

But thanks for sharing your views. As I said, I like reading other points of view to learn how others think and develop their views. It helps me when dealing with those types to clarify why they feel that way, which generally comes back to fear and denial.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 23, 2002, 8:41 AM

Views: 25432

    

Re: [Georgia] You are American

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And as they say, if you don't like it leave. How about if you don't like it fix it. That is why there are organizations that define themselves around Latinos and pride. It is not to isolate but to insolate against the uneducated few that still feel the rules of the game are determined by the majority rather than the individual who is supposed to have equality.

As far as drugs and corruption in Mexico, this is why I feel drugs are social genocide. This is the reason I posted the way I have.

Now, do I believe that every American citizen feels has some unwritten agenda to make Latinos miserable? Hell no! I have too many wonderful American friends to feel that way. Oddly enough, they don't have problems with how I perceive myself and I don't have problems with their degree of pride in their origins either. Having lived in Europe, I feel many Americans overlook some of the fabulous cultural traditions their families brought to the U.S. I think there is room for pride for everyone.



scott

Nov 23, 2002, 1:16 PM

Views: 25412

    

Re: [Georgia] You are American

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When I hear things like that, it makes me sad. My neighbors in Canada were Colombian, and their 18 year old daughter was very pretty. They are nice people. Where they are from is irrelevant. But I'm thinking Canada is a lot different from the USA, as far as racial harmony goes. Thats not to say it is perfect, by any means.

When I was driving home from Morelia to Ontario, the last time I was here, we stopped at Graceland in Memphis, Tenessee. We got there an hour early, so we went to the bank, got gas, stuff like that. Anyway, I saw more black people in that hour than I've seen in my entire life. Two or three minutes down the road from Graceland, its just totally black people, everywhere you look. I could not believe my eyes. And these were NOT poor people, they had nice cars, etc... But, I was the only white person in this gas station, with maybe 10 African Americans in the store, and another half dozen out pumping gas, and then others sitting in the cars waiting. That was so wierd for me. Why would all these middle class african americans choose to live in one part of town? Whats the point? Never in my life, had I ever been in such a racially homogenous place before. I've just never seen that before. I saw a lot of Asian people in one part of Vancouver, but there was still lots of other people around. So that was a very wierd experience for me. And I just don't understand why they would choose to do that (or feel compelled to). And I don't really see how it is healthy for society at large.

I don't quite understand why I shared that, but I think just to show that stuff like that, that I saw in the United States, is very different from what I am used to at home. And trust me, Canada has many different people.. I'm not saying Canada is great either, but just that, I have a hard time when I read all this stuff about minorities being opressed by the majority (white people implied), when nearly half the population is not white at all. I don't know. I know a half Nigerian, half caucasian Canadian who likes to talk about how rough it is. So I know "'minorities" don't feel totally at ease in Canada either. But I just don't believe its as bad as some people make it out to be. This girl is one of my mothers best friends.

Being a clearly white person in Mexico, in Morelia, where the number of gringos is nothing like at the beach, or I suppose what I've heard about Ajijic or San Miguel de Allende, I get looked at all the time. All the time. They stare me down like crazy. A week and a half ago, I was downtown in the main plaza, reading. Some guy just walked by and looked at me and said "pinche gringo". So I am kind of learning what it is like to always be judged by the color of your skin.

And, this is just my experience, I'm not stating this as fact by any means, but I feel that the Mexicans of indian descent do not like foreigners. The looks I get from them sometimes are just nasty. And they don't even try to put up with my spanish, or anything. For example, I went to a papeleria, and theres an old native man, sitting out front chit chatting with his friends. He looked at me, and I asked 'Tiene papel para computadoras?" at which he shook his head, and went back to chatting. So I went to the next one, a women who was not native by any means. And I asked "Tiene papel para computadoras?", to which she asked "Whats that? Papel blanco?". And I got my white paper. Of course a papeleria has white paper, but at one store, the guy just isn't even interested in talking to you, or even making an effort. Because of the color of my skin?

About a month ago I was looking for houses. An old indian guy is sitting out infront of his house, which has a sign 'Se renta cuartos" on the window. So I asked him if he lived there, and he freaked out 'Why? Why you asking me that? Why do you want to know"..."You have a sign in the window, that says se renta cuartos". "No rento a cabrones como tu". OF COURSE, there are exceptions, but as a general rule I feel Indians here don't want anything to do with me based on my skin color. I have to say, 100% that there are exceptions. I met a very beautiful native girl a few days ago, she was very nice and not anything like any other Mexicans I have met. But, as a general rule.......

Or how about, when I go to a store, and I've bought chips a thousand times for $2.50, and they try to pretend its $4 pesos. Of course I point out the correct price, and they just pretend it was a mistake. Or getting ripped of in Durango, albeit nearly 6 months ago now. I'll never forget that. I was in a little bar, and paid for a beer with a $200. Then I thought this old girl was asking for proper change, so I then gave her proper change. Then she came back with a $1 US dollar bill, and told me it was the same as $200 pesos. Of course, being surrounded by real, native Mexicans, I didn't argue the situation that much. It was after twelve in downtown Durango, in a tiny back alley bar where I probably should not have been.

BUT, the point is that, I take offense to always hearing about how minorities are oppressed and discriminated against by the (white) majority, when every race and culture in the entire world pre judges people and is racist. The same stuff happens to me here in Mexico. So I don't like when people pretend, not anyone specifically, that its only the white majority who is racist.



scott

Nov 23, 2002, 1:31 PM

Views: 25393

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Three days ago, I was biking down Juarez street in Morelia, a main 4 lane road with service roads on either side, and the cops came and stopped me for no apparent reason too. I was not drinking, I was not doing anything but biking home from my friends house to my house. They addressed me as "güero" right from the get go, so they were quite aware of my ethnicity. The same things that American police might do to Mexicans, the Mexicans do to foreigners as well.

Ok it happened to be 2:45am, but I still wasn't doing anything except biking down the road. Thankfully there were no hints for a mordida. But if I had been doing anything slightly unusual, I'm sure they would have really harrassed me too.



keith

Nov 23, 2002, 4:18 PM

Views: 25380

    

hey, Scott and Marisol

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In the aggregate we are all racist and sexist, aprovechados, selfish, envidiosos, celosos, amargos: your group, my group, those other guys over there. All you can hope for is to find individuals you can know and love. The rest aren't worth your time. Avoid them, don't let them bring you down.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 23, 2002, 4:18 PM

Views: 26942

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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Here is the rediculousness of your posts. On one hand you claim you've been discriminated against and then you have the nerve to minimalize the same discrimination which has been cast at minorities for years!

How does it feel, Scott? How about a whole LIFETIME of it? How about living in a country where you were born, where they ram "justice for all" down your throat and you can't run away from it while you are growing up. Do you suppose you'd have a little animosity towards the people that cast this behavior your way? At least you can go home and get away from it. You know this. Many of us are born into it and no matter WHERE we go, it follows us.

It sickens me when a person that clearly has advantages minimalizes the experiences of others and then plays the pity role when it happens to them. In all honestly, I don't wish that you go through the experiences you do in Mexico, because it's what I fight against. But when you minimalize the same behavior, and claim it doesn't happen in Canada...which is a load of crap from what my Canadian friends have told me...then you provide consent to the behavior.

The Indio man that turns a cold shoulder to you is equally as offensive. i would not do that to you, in spite of my feelings about how many people in the U.S. and Canada have done it to me. The reason? Because I don't like to emulate bad behavior. Still, that does not mean that I will allow others to define my role in life for me or dish out my future. If this pisses off others, then great, I've done my job. Because to lay around and whine about something and not do anything to correct it, like take back your right to be treated with dignity and respect is to condone the negativity.

I'm not clear by your posts whether you are in Canada or Mexico. But if you are in Mexico, I hope you will open your mind and learn from the disrespectful ways of the people that treat you poorly and vow to never treat another the same...and that includes minimalizing their pain or trying to be the authority on what they should feel or do in their life, because you deserve equality just as we do...nothing more, nothing less. THAT is what Latino Pride teaches me!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 23, 2002, 4:32 PM

Views: 26934

    

Re: [keith] hey, Scott and Marisol

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Keith,

You are absolutely correct! Everyone has all of those qualities inside of them and those that deny it are hiding their pain. Speaking with people like Scott helps me learn why people act as they do and why I react as I do. But when you sit back and think about the fact that he has very little exposure to other races, it explains it.

I'm hoping that his stay in Mexico provides him with a new learning experience, although I hope it isn't too rough on him. I don't like it when White people go through this in Mexico, anymore than I like the same stuff in the U.S. cast at Mexicans. I would hope that his experiences are for the most part positive ones...but that he takes away from the negativity the reasons why he should change his views.

THIS is why I love the fact that the world is becoming more multi-cultural. When people have the opportunity to learn about each other, they grow change and develop. I learned this by living in Jamaica, where I was not allowed in a theater in downtown Kingston. The experience wasn't knew to me, but being called a "Duppy Woman" or Ghost woman was...smile

...oh, Raider told me in a PM that I don't smile enough and that I must be miserable and I guess he perceived me as bitter and hateful...smile, smile...LOL...so forgive me for the sickening expressive emotions.

Okay, now I can just be me again...and if people feel I'm embittered then they can develop more of a storyline to go with that and publish a novel on my poor little life...he he.

Marisol la puta con muchas sonrisas

Marisol



Georgia


Nov 23, 2002, 4:36 PM

Views: 26928

    

Re: [scott] You are American

| Private Reply
One small thing, Scott. From your account with brusque Mexicans who brush you off: I hope you didn't really walk up to them and just straight out ask about the paper. Did you? First, you do need to greet the shopkeeper, ask how he is, etc. approach the matter indirectly. Pass the time of day a bit first. Mexicans find the Canadian and American straightforwardness very rude. How, you may ask, have I learned this? The hard way.



CanMex

Nov 23, 2002, 8:36 PM

Views: 26916

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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I believe you have the wrong outlook, on who should tell what to who. There are cases where a Mexican National maybe be in a better position to tell about Mexico, but in other circumstances an American or Canadian may be in a better position to tell another American and/or Canadian about Mexico.

The point being, that an American or Canadian wants information that would apply to him, from his perspective, there are better chances that an American or Canadian would know what is important to him, and is also in a better situation to see the differences. (as a matter of fact a Mexican who has never been out of Mexico, would not have anything to compare. What is natural to him, may not be to the foreigner)

Another point is that the opinion of a Mexican who lives in an Ejido vs one who lives on the Frontera, or in a tourist area like Acapulco, would be so different, that you would believe that all three are from different countries.

About legalization of Marijuana, it sounds like you have not studied or thought out the idea at all. Prohibition of alcohol was brought about by well intentioned people who thought, it would settle the problem of consumption. Only to realize that it did not stop consumption, and created organized crime with which we are still stuck with today. They then moved to drugs, prostitution, gambling etc..

Talking about prostitution, it is legalized in Nevada and they have less problems than a lot of other states where it is illegal.

Firstly, if Marijuana was legalized, you may or may not have more users than you do now. You probably would have less people on worst drugs, if Marijuana is legal and cheaper than other drugs. (Cheaper drugs less crime, no need for breaking and entering or mugging etc.)

Secondly, you would eliminate Pushers of Marijuana and would be taking the distribution out of the hands of criminals who are getting rich on it. By taking pushers away, less pressure on young kids to consume.

Thirdly, if they put a tax on it this could create revenue for fighting drugs and helping drug addicts.

I must say that I agree with most of what you say. I find it hypocritical of the American government to act the way they do. They know they cannot do without the Mexican cheap labor to keep their economy going, the big spending on stopping border crossings is just a big political show, to keep some of the southern states quiet and believing that the government is doing something, instead of trying to explain that the US really needs that cheap labor to keep cheap food on the table and maids and babysitters for those same politicians and rich people.

The US has done away with slavery or have they?

4 years ago my girl friend a Mexican National, tried to get her papers so she could travel to Canada with me in my Motorhome for 6 months. Guess what she did not get her papers, so I had to fly her up while I was driving the Motorhome back. Once in Canada I went to the US Consulate to try and get her papers once more, just to be told, since the Consulate in Matamoros had refused, they could not do anything unless we got married then it would be a Canadian matter.

We could not get married, because she already was, but her husband left her 9 years ago to go to work in Florida and took up with another and just abandoned her with her 4 kids. So when she came back she applied for a divorce, the first lawyer dragged things for one year and then just abandoned the case, the second lawyer pretty much the same, third lawyer got everything done except the one last appearance in court so she went and see the judge and he told her it was past 6 months since the opening of the file, so she will have to get another file opened and have the articles in the newspapers republished and wait 70 days and appear in court and if her husband has not objected, he will grant the divorce. But then there is one year waiting period before we can get married.



scott

Nov 23, 2002, 9:06 PM

Views: 26906

    

Re: [Georgia] You are American

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As a matter of fact, I did just walk up to him and ask him for the paper. Thanks for the warning, I never really thought of it like that.



scott

Nov 23, 2002, 11:14 PM

Views: 26906

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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I said the police gave me the third degree, three days ago, in Morelia. Morelia is the state capital of Michoacan. That would imply I am still in Mexico.

Just like any other anti-racism person, the first thing you do is attack me based on the grounds that I am sheltered, unintelligent, and do not know anything about the world, etc, etc. You are just as guilty of making assumptions to further your argument, as anyone else is.

. But when you sit back and think about the fact that he has very little exposure to other races, it explains it.

There is one of your assumptions. Canada is very multicultural. I'm sure there are problems. I read today, intentionally looking for random info to further my argument, that 38% of Torontonians are foreign born. In my city, London, 20% of the population is foreign born. That does not even include the visible minorities born within the country. Of my best friends in high school, one was half lebanese / half romanian, the other two in our core little group were
of east indian descent. But they were totally assimilated into Canadian culture. Only the half lebanese friend clinged to his culture, to any degree. Why? Because the coolest badass group of kids in the school were of arab descent, and it served him well.

One thing I was trying to get at, is that I think its totally stupid that there is a part of Memphis Tenessee, that is completely black. I didn't mean Canada was perfect, but you will not find that at home. We should all assimilate, and live happily ever after in our new cultures. Don't cling to your latina roots, whats the point. If you think Mexican culture is so great, then go live in Mexico. If you are in the United States, assimilate.

Now that I've pointed out that some of my closest friends were of different descent than myself, and that many different people live in Canada, I will tell you about my experience in Mexico.

I came for 5 weeks, October of last year. I liked it so much, that I went home, saved up all the money I could, and returned. To put it as Jennifer Rose might, "I have worn out my first tourist card". So I have been here a little while, and like to think I know a little bit about Mexican culture. I live in an Infonavit, with two old Mexican ladies. I like it. Plus, I'm cheap as hell and need to make my money go as far as possible. So I live in the projects in Morelia, Michoacan, with two old Mexican ladies. But, I have Internet by cable, my computer, and thats pretty much all need to be happy. I don't care about all the stupid stuff at home, thats why I came to get away from it. I enjoy paying $800 pesos a month rent. It allows me to live a completely relaxed and stress free life, like many Mexicans do.

In my daily life, I am totally and completely immersed in Mexican life. I'm sorry if my friends typically happen to be middle class Mexicans, who live completely normal lives, not particularly different from those at home. But it just so happens, that it is very rare for poor native indians to approach me for no apparent reason, just to chit chat. It seems to be the middle class school girls who seem most likely to do this, and hence, those are who my friends are. I admit I don't have a clue what life is like in tiny Mexican villages. I have been to them of course, but never spent much time there.

So now that I have hopefully proven your blind assumption wrong, that I have no exposure to other cultures, let me state that I have zero problems with Mexican culture. My problem is with immigrants who go to a new country, and sit around blaming their lives on the (white) majority. My problem is with people who refuse to assimilate. If Mexican culture means so much to you, go live in Mexico. But you are American. So live an American life. Or go find a new country. You know, thats not even the point. I feel you should be able to live however you want to. Believe whatever you want to. What drives me crazy is people who blame everything on the white majority.

It sickens me when a person that clearly has advantages...

What are my advantages? Please, I'd like to know.... The fact that I am white. Oh I see, thats why I have so many advantages in life. What about the dirt poor white person, who grew up in a trailer park with an abusive alcoholic father? Are you saying that kid has advantages too just because he is white? Because you know nothing about my life, you're just assuming that because I am white my life must be peachy keen without problems. White people don't have problems, they have so many advantages, etc etc. Give me a break, everyone in the world has problems.

One thing I was hoping to illustrate with my little anecdotal stories is this. If I was a visible minority, and it was the cops pulling me over in the USA for no apparent reason, I could cry bloody murder and accuse the whole police department of being racist. And I'd get away with it. The same thing happens in Mexico, and whenever I get ripped off two or three pesos, or a price magically changes when I go back and get a different clerk (like the store owner instead), I swear its because I'm white. I huff and puff, and get all mad. But you know what, sometimes I secretly send in a Mexican friend just to see what price they get quoted, and you know what, sometimes I really was given the correct price. Of course my first reaction is to blame in on them thinking I'm a rich gringo with lots of cash to spend, but maybe the first clerk was just giving me a discount. Its very easy to blame your skin color for anything that goes wrong. If you didn't get that promotion, your immediate reaction is that its because you are brown. You are more qualified than that white guy, you know that. It must be your skin color that didn't get you promoted in that company. But perhaps, there really is another explanation. Maybe they didn't hire you because they too could tell that you were obsessed with your Latina culture, and that could bias your business decisions. Who knows, but please, I know its easy as hell to blame everything on your skin color, but the fact is, when push comes to shove, if you really are that star employee who outsold every other salesperson in your division, then you will get promoted. I just can't grasp that they would look at you at say "I'm sorry, even though you are our best employee, and make us the most money, and are just perfect in every way, we can't promote you because our corporate policy is not to promote Mexican descents past xxx level". I don't buy it. But please, feel free to convince me. I do have an open mind. But that does not mean I buy whatever the TV and politically correct establishment try to feed me. I will listen, as you listen to me. Georgia's story about her daughter, it is sad. But I just don't believe white people are the cause of every immigrants problem.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 12:26 AM

Views: 26905

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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One question. If you have family that is from Mexico, why do you refer to yourself as a "Gringo?" I've never met any Latinos that did that. Is your family through marriage possibly?

As you can see, comments of yours such as this, are what really irked me. If a fair skinned person of partial or half hispanic descent wants to consider themself gringo, because they grew up in America and know nothing else, then so be it. Don't just blindy say that anyone of some degree of hispanic descent, can't just assume themselves as 100% American.

As a Latina, I feel that Marijuana is a tool that is used by many governments for social genocide. It is distributed to keep economically challenged areas depressed and basically complacent with inequities.

That's complete BS. Am I alone here? Please, someone tell me I'm not the only person that sees this as a so called latina blaming the presumably white government for her peoples problems? Give me a break. Yeah I'm so sure that a guy growing marijuana in his backyard, or closet, or where ever, is doing it because the American government has a secret agenda of oppressing poor latinos. The US government probably buys the seeds and secretely distributes them to all the other white people in on this little conspiracy. Thats just makes no sense what so ever, its completely stupid. Do you honestly believe the US government does this? And yes, I know you didn't specifically say the US or that its a white conspiracy, but some things are implied. By government, you imply majority, by which you imply white. White people are opressing latinos, by having the government distribute marijuana to poor people. Can you explain this to me?

I’ve even read posts here referring to Latinos as a “violent” culture, with some pretty humorous reasoning behind it, and the person posting sent me a private message to “explain further” the reasons he felt we were more violent. What he didn’t assimilate, were the root causes behind some of the violence, such as many of the disparities in lifestyle, economic levels, housing, education, and such a myriad of OTHER reasons that it would paint a clearer picture and make his analogy look rather silly.

Obviously, rich fair skinned Mexicans stay put right here in Mexico. Why would they leave? Why would a rich, upper class Mexican who garners much respect here in Mexico, want to go live a work till you drop, average life in the USA? Would they be able to find a 10 peso an hour gata on the other side? No, they stay here. So, its the poor and desperate Mexicans, probably with next to zero hope in their lives, that head for the States. Obviously, they are very incredibly desperate if they are willing to risk their lives crossing the desert, or whatever other means they use. Guess what? This problem was created in Mexico. America did not create this problem of extreme poverty in Mexico. I know you're going to try and argue next that its America taking advantage of Mexico, thats why Mexicans are poor. So, we have poor and desperate Mexicans crossing the desert to get to the States. And what do they have when they get there? NOTHING. And now you're saying its disparities in education, housing, etc, that is why latinos are poor. Sure, but who created that problem? Is it Americas fault if desperate illegal aliens risk their lives and everything they have to get to the land of the free, and are poor when they get there? Of course, the kids are going to be poor, and so starts the cycle. America did not create that problem. Mexico did. Don't imply its Americas fault, that Latinos are poor.

i want to clarify one thing. most people involved in Atzlan and Brown Pride movements are not involved in this sort of lifestyle or even condone it. We promote pride.....

This is just to establish that you do in fact have a brown pride agenda. This is not at issue. What would happen if someone posted and said "We in the White Pride movement promote....."? You'd be the first to accuse them of not knowing anything about the world, of being ignorant, a bigot, and unintelligent.

We have both pursued education in the arts and try to use this media to help the young gang members who are deported after serving time and live in tijuana

So a minute ago you are denying latinos are violent. Oh and here you are talking about all the latino gangsters who get deported back to Mexico.

that was the problem with my husband, who lived in the u.s. illegally from the time he was fourteen

Oh gee, you're very own husband was an illegal immigrant. I'm sure it was the housing and education disparities of illegal immigrants in the United States that caused all his problems, right?

...and hence joined a gang...

Oh really? Latinos aren't violent? But whats this, your very own latino husband was a gangster too? Obviously these aren't just isolated incidents where latinos in the USA are violent.

Although they should remove YOUR posts for both the offensive nature of displaying how violent minority races are, and not even summing up the reasons for crime statistics, I'm sure they will delete mine again. Well, I'm a Latina, so I'm USED to having my opinions censored.

Here we go again. I bet Jennifer Rose, you know that Mexican citizen apparently jewish moderator, shes out to get you and censor all your Latina opinions.

my husband once was a gang member, who dealt in this, i can tell you that the amount of money involved merits that it is dangerous to even attempt to get involved in this. when my husband was arrested and sent to prison, he was dealing arms on both sides of the border and had over seven hundred thousand dollars in assets,

Oh gee, another juicy little nugget about your husband.

Given the events of the sniper that took over Washington DC, I'd say TJ is a WHOLE lot safer.

How many people die in a place like, oh lets say Ciudad Juarez, without anyone caring? A dozen or so people die in the USA and its world breaking news. Its all media trying to make money. I'm sure 0.000000001 percent of the population of Washington DC being shot by a snipper doesn't even begin to compare to the number of murders in Mexico. I still can't get over the fact that one day I saw in the news that 8 people were executed somewhere in Michoacan. And a couple days later I went to a 'conversation club', and no one there even knew about it. That says something, doesn't it? Oh yes, by the way, now I'm just out to attack anything you might have said......

I totally love Mexico, I am very happy with my life here, but this blaming America and the white majority for all your problems just doesn't sit well with me. Its been a long time since I've ranted to this degree, but seeing you consistently post pushing your brown pride agenda, really got to me. I'm sorry.... I think I've pretty much said all that was on my mind now...... Please, understand I'm just a person ranting online, I'm probably totally different IRL than you expect. Please, don't take it personally. Don't hate me. Well, at least don't hate me enough that you hook up with your husbands old gang members to silence me.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 7:10 AM

Views: 26882

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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Read the title of this forum..."Mexico's Internet Magazine"

And the subtitle is Mexico Connect. I've already alluded to the fact in previous posts that Americans may want information geared towards their needs. But honestly, when I entered this site, I was sincerely hoping it would be information that I could really use, not just American opinions on Mexico. While I like reading these opinions too, I was hoping to learn more about Mexico and I don't find that here.

Still, I think people come here for various reasons and I don't feel it should all be focused, if nothing else then by the title of the site, towards only American opinion. I'm quite sure there are others that would like fact vs. opinion as well.

As far as the Marijuana debate, it's obvious you haven't read a medical resport or psychological report on the effects of prolonged use, so I won't waste my time with you on this. It's also obvious you don't have any experience with the violence associated with distribution of it. Some people prefer to live in la la land rather than accept the facts and I don't waste time trying to sway these folks because they aren't worth the effort.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 7:42 AM

Views: 26882

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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By your own admission, you ARE sheltered! You admitted in previous posts that you have very little exposure to minorities, as a matter of fact you were "surprised to see so many Black folks in Tennessee at some gas station" and found it odd that they "lived in little enclaves" etc. My dear, for the year 2002, that is a very odd thing to write, to say the least! You also admitted you've just recently heard of Latinos and Chicanos which seems odd since you have internet access and live in Canada...a very well informed country. Then you deny the problems exist in Canada for the most part but say that the Arabs and Lebonese identify by their Arab and Lebonese roots. Do you have any concept of how naive that sounds?

One has to assume you've been very protected! My Regional Sales Manager lives in Ontario, my dear, and he is Lebonese and he sings a very different song than the one you do. I also have a Salvadorean girlfriend that moved to Canada that tells a different tale than yours. While they admit the degree of racism is slightly less than the U.S., they tell me it very well DOES exist.

Then you say, "just like any other anti-racism person." Can I presume from this statement that my "anti-racism views" bother you? I loved the implications that the reasons I didn't get the promotions in SOME company cultures was my views. Oddly enough, Scott, I don't demonstrate my views at work. As a matter of fact, you'll be pleased to know that the last three people I hired to work in my department were as follows: a wonderful White young man who has the best graphics arts portfolio I ever saw, and another White man, who had a proven track record as a market analyst that blew the other candidates out of the water. Why you ask? Did I have Latino applicants? Yes. But I chose the best qualified people for the position, not the race. I adore both of my employees and value them and would fight for their career objectives.

I was not chosen to rise in the two company cultures I refer to strictly because of race. The fact is, there were NO minorities in management at these two companies and since my performance generated 16 million dollars in sales revenue the first year I entered the company, it wasn't illogical that I would be the logical choice for the marketing director of that company. Instead, they hired a White guy....(they weren't big on women in management either, Scott, so I had two strikes against me).

Does this mean that ALL companies in the U.S. are like this? No! I wasn't silly enough to remain at a company like that and found the company I work for now. Guess what! There are not limitations with this company based on sex or race. I feel I can go as far as I drive myself.

You are still missing the idea. If it doesn't feel good when they do it to you, then don't do it to others. I believe in this wholeheartedly, which is why I try to treat ALL people with the same level of respect. My comments about you and to you were based on information you freely told us. The fact that you are shocked that Memphis Tennessee has a bunch of Black folks in one area is amusing to me. Why? Because I grew up in areas where there were only Latinos. As I said, when a society chooses to provide justice for some and not all, you tend to insolate yourself...it's rather normal behavior!

As far as how you would act with the police...that is hilarious. Let me ask you this...what if the police harrassed you once a week. Do you think anyone would take your calls complaining seriously? Guess what Scott~! In the REAL world they don't! Eventually you gain the reputation of being a complainer and they even hang up on you. I wish it were as simple as you make it. You are simply too naive.


What are my advantages? Please, I'd like to know.... Scott, in answer to that, you live in a town where you eek out a meager living and have a computer unlike the other people you live around who live cheaply. And one more, Scott....YOU CAN GO HOME AND IT WILL ALL BE OVER...THEY CAN'T!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 8:07 AM

Views: 26881

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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Scott,

Education 101 on Latino culture. We don't refer to ourselves as Gringos...LOL Honestly, I don't even like the word because I feel it is racist. Many don't, but I do.

And Scott, a conspiracy is something done secretly. The drug distribution issues are done clearly in the open in many minority neighborhoods other than Latino neighborhoods. And YES my dear little naive one, it is done PRIMARILY in minority neighborhoods.

"Obviously, rich fair skinned Mexicans stay put right here in Mexico. Why would they leave? Why would a rich, upper class Mexican who garners much respect here in Mexico, want to go live a work till you drop, average life in the USA? Would they be able to find a 10 peso an hour gata on the other side? No, they stay here. So, its the poor and desperate Mexicans, probably with next to zero hope in their lives, that head for the States."

For the most part, I agree with you on this. I might add that the poor and disenchanted Europeans did much the same throughout history. America is a melting pot of the poor from other countries or the people who fear for their lives from wars. So I don't see the relevance. And you are right about the problems of the Mexican government creating the poverty and disparity within the country of Mexico....by the way, Scott, I do live here...and have for quite a few years...so please stop telling me to move to Mexico if I don't like it...I DID.

"What would happen if someone posted and said "We in the White Pride movement promote....."? You'd be the first to accuse them of not knowing anything about the world, of being ignorant, a bigot, and unintelligent."

Wrong again, Scott. I have no issues with people involved in these movements as long as it's to promote pride in their life. What I DO disagree with in ANY movement, is the pride being used to denigrate others. That includes Latino movements.

As far as my husband, I freely admit his past affiliations with gang involvement, which is why I am so ADAMANTLY opposed to drug dealing and the violence it causes. THAT my dear, is what makes me an expert on the subject of why it should not be allowed...legally or illegally. Since he has been deported and can not re-enter the U.S. ever again, he is no threat to the U.S. and since he did his time and no longer is involved with gangs and helps others get out, he is no threat to Mexico either. As a matter of fact, he would probably be the best mentor for those that want to change their lives. How odd though, that you don't bring up the fact that he was 14 when he crossed and joined a gang to merely exist in a country that would have thrown him out. It's also odd that you don't bring up the fact that I have NEVER been involved in any such activities nor condone them, which was also in that post. Your selectivity provides quite an illustration. Also, my husband is not representative of MOST Latinos, so to deduct that we are all violent because MY husband was in a gang is somewhat rediculous. If you feel that way, then why do you live in Mexico? It would seem any logical person wouldn't want to live in a violent society.

In summation, Scott, I don't hate you. I actually respect your ranting and honesty, because I feel you are telling how you feel. I respect people that do this, because I think honesty allows for useful discourse and learning. I certainly don't have any gang members to whip out and hurt you, nor would I endorse such behavior. You may not believe me, but after reading your post, I like you more. Why? Because at least you have the balls to stand by your convictions, even if we disagree. Many walk through life wearing a mask and do not have the nerve to be honest. Those are the people I feel threatened by, not the people that allow me to honestly respond to them. My hat is off to you! Even if I do feel you are very naive.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 8:15 AM

Views: 26878

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Excuse me Scott...USED TO live in Canada...that was not an intentional error.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 8:47 AM

Views: 26878

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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I might add that both my husband and I were extremely sad about both the events of the sniper and the occurance of 9/11. I don't feel that violence is EVER a means to solve problems. What we teach young gang members trying to leave gangs is to have pride in culture, not violence to ruin other people's lives. As I said before, we both have education in the Arts and find that this is a wonderful way to influence pride. Mexico has so many wonderful arts and music and it tends to soothe the pain that these young men and women have in their souls. Many of them haven't been exposed to positive influences such as this. They've spent their lives in fear...fear of being forced to do things their families did not even endorse, simply to exist.

The beauty of Latino pride allows these young folks to drastically change their perspective and their views of their own lives and identity. Instead of feeling like a minority in the world, they begin to blossom into poets, painters, and even trades. We are proud of one young man in particular, who came to us with a heroine habit and a rather disgusting disrespect for women. He lived with us for a year and got off the drugs. I actually had to get into fist fights with him to defend myself, because he refused to do anything around the house he considered "women's work." Now, he owns an auto body repair shop and is happily married. He is probably one of the best husbands I've seen and dotes on his wife and values her as a woman.

We had a young girl that was White that had been in Latino gangs. When she came to us, she had a drug problem, had been diagnosed with HIV and was two months pregnant. She had been working in a topless bar downtown in TJ. She grew up in Los Angeles and got involved with the wrong crowd. She wouldn't go home. We took her to counseling and got medical treatment for her and I'm happy to say she eventually decided to go back home and try to have a normal life. Through my husband's experiences, she saw how bad it could get.

We've also had failures, which is tough. Presently, we are burnt out and have no children, so we donate funds to an orphanage to help children who's families may or may not have the funds to raise them. Scott, this is what Latino pride is about. If you would only read about it, you might not have these radical ideas of what we do.

Do I blame the racism and lack of tolerance in the U.S. and Mexico for these poor children's experiences? YES. If any of these children had experienced hope, they wouldn't have joined the gangs to begin with.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a family that instilled pride. I never had any inclination to join a gang or commit crimes. I was driven towards education and I feel that God provided me with this option to help others. My husband did not have those options. He grew up in an abusive home. The idea of leaving that existance for the U.S. and then joining a gang so he could feel needed was a choice he made at a young age, like many gang members. Fortunately, he learned in prison that no gang needs you or cares about you. He paid for his poor choices dearly. We probably will never live in the U.S. again, because of his choices. Fortunately, we are quite happy in Mexico and if we ever choose to leave we could move to Europe or any number of countries.

Legalizing pot will not fix the problem. As long as you have people that have no hope, the drug use will continue. Legalizing the substance only takes the cash made from the distribution from one hand to another one. The problem of drug abuse will not be fixed any more than legalizing alcohol during prohibition fixed alcoholism. Liquor is clearly legal, but the problems such as drunk driving and abuse and such a myriad of problems that are the direct result of abuse of that substance are clearly still there. To think that legalizing pot will magically make all the problems go away is too simple.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 11:10 AM

Views: 26858

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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Well, I thought you were misleading people by your consistent pushing of your latina agenda. It upset me seeing your suppositions that imply white people are opressing poor latinos. Thats why I decided to share my opinions.

As far as marijuana, guess what, the Canadian Senate disagrees with you:

The [senate] committee concludes that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol, and rejects the idea that smoking pot leads to harder drugs.

The senate committee released its report in September. Here is a short article:

http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/09/04/pot_committee020904

So, Canadian senators, who presumably had a lot of time and money to use researching this issue, disagree with you. If you click the 'Indepth' link on that page, you will see these quotes, also from a report from the Canadian senate:


* Marijuana is "not a gateway" to harder drug, such as cocaine and heroine

* Fewer than 10 per cent of users become addicted

* A lot of public money is spent on law enforcement, even though public policies don't seem to discourage use of drug



So, just because some poor and desperate latinos supposedly get mentally addicted to it, according to you, according to the senate they are less than 10%. And, its common knowledge that marijuana is not physically addictive. So maybe you should continue helping these latinos who have no control of themselves, but let those otherwise law abiding citizens, who can control themselves, do whatever they want. Why should it be illegal for them?

You know what, I don't even care. I don't even like marijuana, nor alcohol very much. I'm not religious about it, the odd time sure. But I sure the hell believe that just because poor latinos can't control themselves, that should not affect the rights of the majority.

You keep calling me naive, like you think I have all god damned day to sit around disputing all your stupid claims. Obviously you are wrong, and I do know something about the marijuana issue. Did you know this? Maybe you're the naive person. Sure your experiences in your latino barrio might tell you something, but thats just your experience. That is by no means the experience of the majority. And don't try and tell me now that I don't know anything about drugs or drug use. That is something I'm not inclined to talk about in a public forum, where I have already given so many personal details I could easily be tracked down.

What you say on the Internet is there FOREVER. Just go to Google and read all the old Usenet posts from the 80's.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 12:08 PM

Views: 26847

    

Re: [scott] Read Again the Post

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Scott,

The FDA and AMA disagree with a group of Canadian Senators, and honestly, my money would go on the wisdom and experience of physicians educated in the area rather than people that decide things based on lobby dollars. Again, please read the medical and psychological reports before you spurt out these silly references. I had to laugh at the saying that marijuana is not physically addictive. Really? How about MENTALLY addictive, because the THC numbs a part of the hypothalmus that causes the reaction of feeling "laid back" and leads to prolonged daily use, which causes these folks that smoke the stuff when they first wake up to say like cigarettes, "I can quit anytime," but don't. As a matter of fact, socialogical studies of prolonged daily users have statistics that prove that the quality of their decision making and judgement deteriorates and often their lifestyle does as well. Not in all cases, but the percentages are high. But then, if you are well adjusted and have a basically satisfying life, why would you need a substance to numb you anyway, eh?

My dear, you are grasping at straws now. I'm sorry you don't like the term naive...then how about innocent. Whatever it is, you are not informed about Latinos or about Latino pride or even much of anything else having to do with minorities. What is even more interesting is that with this lack of curiosity, you choose to move to Mexico...a Latino country. This indicates an obvious lack of interest, and sadly one can deduct from that with some of the other cute little references what they will. Your agenda and views are not exactly an enigma, my dear.

So I say do your time in Mexico and learn. Maybe if you have enough opportunity to live in Mexico you will begin to see how silly your views really are. But I have to say again, you always have the option to go home when the police harrass you or times get too tough. For you see, you are living in a foreign country with a culture that is foreign to you. And by the way, the police harrass my husband at times too here, and he is not a foreigner, nor white. However, I'm not saying they don't harrass you because you are white, because I would bet some do and some don't. The point is, it's unlikely they do so in Canada because you are white, but in the U.S. they CLEARLY do harrass people simply because they ARE a minority. They even have a term for it...racial profiling.

Some of us that grew up in the states did not have those options when we experienced those problems. The difference in being harrassed in a foreign country and being harrassed in YOUR OWN country is tremendous. The fact that you minimalize the experiences of people that have very little opportunity to change or even the tools to know how to change their lives proves you clearly have advantages, as do I for having grown up with a caring, loving and pride filled family. The children we help do not have that advantage so honestly I tend to have a great deal more respect for these kids that overcome these barriers than a spoiled and privileged person who has the funds and options to travel freely to another country for what ever reasons he chooses to. The difference between you and them, is once they have the knowledge, they choose to enhance their lives and do not wish to minimalize other people's plights. You on the other hand, are thes disadvantaged one in that you don't know any better because you've never been the minority. Clearly, if racism comes into play then that is YOUR disadvantage. However, you do follow the current politically correct way of speaking, by saying we are all equal and denying that racism exists. I think what really pisse you off about me, is that I'm not one of the poor people apologizing for existing that you would like to expect for my culture. I'm actually one of the normal Latinas that feels I'm just as good as anyone else and won't allow someone that has a clear lack of knowledge about my culture to instruct me on how I should perceive myself. My dear! Welcome to Mexico! You'll probably find the majority of us are like this if you open your eyes. It's probably a shock because in countries with more European majority cultures, you find the enclaves of minorities, some of which are still apologizing for existing due to the centuries of oppression they've experienced. Thank GOD times are a changing! Now we can and do have expectations of others and some of that involves that YOU modify YOUR behavior to suit us as much as we do for you.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 12:18 PM

Views: 26856

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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You admitted in previous posts that you have very little exposure to minorities, as a matter of fact you were "surprised to see so many Black folks in Tennessee at some gas station"

Canada is not perfect. But, it was my experience growing up, that I never saw an ethnic barrio. Seeing this in the USA was a shock to me. Yes, we've all seen poor black neighboorhoods on Law & Order, etc, but these black people were not poor. One image that sticks in my mind is that of a black girl driving by in a Miata convertible. It was wierd to think that middle class black people would isolate themselves from the rest of society. And I don't understand why.

Can I presume from this statement that my "anti-racism views" bother you?

Yes, they do. It used to bother me a lot in the past. Now, not so much so, but yes you hit a nerve. Always being told, "you clearly have advantages, you know, cause your white", can get to you after a while.

You also admitted you've just recently heard of Latinos and Chicanos which seems odd since you have internet access and live in Canada..

What do you know about native life in Moosonee or Red Lake Ontario? Red Lake is about as far north as the road goes in Ontario, and Moosonee is on the shore of James (Hudsons) Bay, accessible only by plane or train. You are very naive and uninformed if you can't tell me all about life there. You must be fairly unintelligent too, you know in this day and age with the internet and everything.

If you want, I'll share my experiences in either place. Latino life in the USA has zero relevance on life in Canada. Statscan says there are 118,000 latin americans in Canada. There are 31 million people total. So, that means latinos are 0.004 % of the Canadian population, and have next to zero influence on my life. Don't assume that just because they are a big part of your country, that the rest of the world should be experts too. Just like I don't expect you to be an expert on the huge french population of my country. You must be pretty naive if you can't tell me about life in, oh, Pohenegamook Quebec? Do you know about poor innocent Canadians being harrassed by the INS as well?

http://www.pressherald.com/news/state/021115hunter.shtml

This story is pretty sad. A poor white Canadian being sent to a US jail for more than a month, for buying gas. The driveway of the gas station is in Canada. Border Patrol arrested him, and he still faces 6 months for illegally entering the country. I am sharing this to show that the Border Patrol Agents are not nice, even to white Canadians. But, I'm sure you had no clue that this stuff goes on up north too. Border Patrol only harrasses poor latinos. Oh, that story is dated November 15th, 2002. I didn't search months of newspaper archives to come up with something to show you. Research it more, its quite interesting.

The point is that we see the world from different perspectives. I don't expect you to know about everything that happens on the Maine/Quebec border, just like you shouldn't expect me to know everything about the life of poor Mexicans crossing the southern border.

Scott, in answer to that, you live in a town where you eek out a meager living and have a computer unlike the other people you live around who live cheaply.

As a general rule, do you consider Mexicans hard workers? Do you think opening a variety store, the third on the same corner, and sitting there all day staring into space and watching tv is a hard life? If they really wanted to get ahead, they could buy a book and teach themselves english or something. I'm sorry, but I just don't feel, based on my experience here in Mexico, that Mexicans have it that rough. Its part of the laid back, relaxed culture and lifestyle, what many of us like here. But don't blame it on anyone else. I feel for many, its by choice. With exceptions, of course. Perhaps this thread could be moved to the new forum, instead of deleting it. I know out of everything I've said, this last thing will be the most likely candidate to get wiped out.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 12:30 PM

Views: 26846

    

Re: [scott] Read Again the Post

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By the way, what you say on the internet should not bother you, if you are arguing for a cause that has no shame behind it. I have not said anything that I would be ashamed of reading twenty years from now.

I don't know what in your life is making you so paranoid, but my heart goes out to you for that. I would not appreciate feeling that way and I don't wish it on you. If posting in this forum provides some form of fear in your life, then maybe I'll let you go and not respond, because as much as I like your ability to come back at me, I don't want you to have any harm from what you say here. Honestly, since this is a computer, I don't know what your lifestyle is but if you are concerned that my husband was once upon a time in a gang, please don't sweat it. He hates that life now and would NEVER do anything to hurt anyone now. He was on drugs back then, which is part of why his ability to make rational choices was inhibited among other things.

Honestly, he's the person that saves all the damned dogs and cats around here and drives me nuts trying to save the world. I think he feels some sense of guilt for what he did in the past. What was sad, is that when I first met him, he was more like a wounded animal in his feelings than any tough guy. The guy was 250 pounds, looked like a damned weightlifter, had tattoos on his face, neck and arms and broke down crying like a baby when he spoke about his mother. I think he is one of the most loving and sensitive men I've ever met, which is why I fell in love with him. He hated Christmas and all the holidays because he had never celebrated them. Now, HE's the one putting up the decorations. As a matter of fact, I have to run so he can put the Christmas lights up. I wish you no harm, Scott, truly from my heart! And in a way I feel as though you might even be a nice person if we weren't talking about something you and I feel so passionate about.

Gotta run...Christmas and Thanksgiving are awaiting in our household...so many things to buy and do.

Adios!



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 12:39 PM

Views: 26839

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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You wrote: QUOTE "Read the title of this forum..."Mexico's Internet Magazine"

And the subtitle is Mexico Connect. I've already alluded to the fact in previous posts that Americans may want information geared towards their needs. But honestly, when I entered this site, I was sincerely hoping it would be information that I could really use, not just American opinions on Mexico. While I like reading these opinions too, I was hoping to learn more about Mexico and I don't find that here.

Still, I think people come here for various reasons and I don't feel it should all be focused, if nothing else then by the title of the site, towards only American opinion. I'm quite sure there are others that would like fact vs. opinion as well. UNQUOTE

I believe you should be reading my post again: QUOTE" There are cases where a Mexican National maybe be in a better position to tell about Mexico, but in other circumstances an American or Canadian may be in a better position to tell another American and/or Canadian about Mexico." UNQUOTE

You wrote QUOTE "As far as the Marijuana debate, it's obvious you haven't read a medical resport or psychological report on the effects of prolonged use, so I won't waste my time with you on this. It's also obvious you don't have any experience with the violence associated with distribution of it. Some people prefer to live in la la land rather than accept the facts and I don't waste time trying to sway these folks because they aren't worth the effort.UNQUOTE

I in no way have condoned the smoking of marijuana, nor have I stated anything about not being damageable to health. And I did address the violoence issue. Instead of waisting your time writing why you wont pay any attention to my post, you should be reading it in order to judge if maybe their isn't another way of thinking than yours althought you seem very intent at sticking with yours no matter what.

Again you should read my post: QUOTE "About legalization of Marijuana, it sounds like you have not studied or thought out the idea at all. Prohibition of alcohol was brought about by well intentioned people who thought, it would settle the problem of consumption. Only to realize that it did not stop consumption, and created organized crime with which we are still stuck with today. They then moved to drugs, prostitution, gambling etc..

Talking about prostitution, it is legalized in Nevada and they have less problems than a lot of other states where it is illegal.

Firstly, if Marijuana was legalized, you may or may not have more users than you do now. You probably would have less people on worst drugs, if Marijuana is legal and cheaper than other drugs. (Cheaper drugs less crime, no need for breaking and entering or mugging etc.)

Secondly, you would eliminate Pushers of Marijuana and would be taking the distribution out of the hands of criminals who are getting rich on it. By taking pushers away, less pressure on young kids to consume.

Thirdly, if they put a tax on it this could create revenue for fighting drugs and helping drug addicts."UNQUOTE

Also don't you think that abuse of tobaco and alcohol are not damageable to health. The advantage of alcohol being legal, is that it did take the violence out of it, or don't you know what kind of violence prohibition of alcohol caused.

I think you should get off of your high horse every once in a while and smell the coffee and realize that someone else could possibly have a good idea, and that it may not be a lost of your time to review your position.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 1:02 PM

Views: 26838

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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Two weeks ago I was sitting downtown in the main plaza, in the evening. Two guys, sat down beside me. They started asking who I am, what I'm doing here, etc, just like tons of people do. Then they turned the conversation over to politics, which I did NOT want to discuss, and explained Article 33 to them, etc. But they insisted, and managed to get me to say I probably supported attacking Iraq. Well, they politely informed me that they feel that I have the right to my own opinion, but then gave me a stern warning that there are people in Mexico who would seriously hurt me for saying that, or for saying anything in support of the USA. They kind of scared me a bit. Thats why I am kind of scared of you, or another latino in the USA reading this, and getting their buddies back home to come hunt me down.

Believe it or not, when I was in high school, I was not happy either. Yes, life is not always peachy keen just because you're white. Anyway, there was a website where I did in fact rant like you wouldn't believe, about everything in my life. This is going back 4 years or so. Anyway, on ICQ, I used to talk to some of the same people. I installed ICQ on my grandparents computer, and my grandfather, who knows only how to read the news websites, supposedly stumpled upon references to this site in my ICQ history. And so, him and my grandmother went and read all my very personal rants about every aspect of my life, and hence, why I have made a point not to rant online for the last few years. Sometimes, I can't help myself though. So now you know why I am paranoid. Oh, and if you search on my old email addresses, or my real name, you'll probably come up with stuff I posted online 6 or 7 years ago, when I was 14 or 15 years old. I don't like that stuff being there anymor. Mind you, it was all computer related, but I fear future employeers, when I'm 30 years old, tracking down my rants from when I was 15. And trust me, people do that stuff. My lebanese friend, back in high school, saw my computer teacher searching the internet with my name. Its fine if your 40 or 50, but I have a whole lifetime to think about.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 1:32 PM

Views: 26843

    

$500 pesos / Semester for University

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So.. My ex-Mexican girlfriend, 22 years old, studies architecture at the big public university here. Its big, looks good, recognized anywhere in Latin America, and costs a grand total of $500 pesos / semester. I insisted she must be mistaken, and brought this up with her parents, who told me that yes they pay $500 pesos / semester for their daughter to study architecture at the university level. That is about $80 Canadian dollars a semester. Likewise, for me to go to school in my country, at a school recognized in my country, I have to come up with at least $2000 Canadian dollars / semester. The six months I spent at the college level, cost me $2004 dollars tuition. Yes someone lent me the money, but I am totally responsable for paying it back to them. Neither cases include books, etc. I had to buy a lot of books, which I did with my very own money.

So, a Mexican, can go to school for $80 / semester. Me, an advantaged white Canadian, I have to pay at least $2004 / semester. Can you please explain how I have the upper hand in this? I had excellent marks in what I did, but did not like it. I would like to study at University instead, which I cannot do until this September. I have to wait four years since I was a full time high school student, before I can apply as a mature student. So anyway, while a Mexican gets away with paying $160 / year, I'm looking at at least $4000 / year. So lets just say at absolute bare minimum, I'm looking at $16000 in tuition. Contrary to what you think, just because I am white does not mean my parents can afford to pay that for me. I can get a loan, but will be paying for the rest of my life. So.... This is another reason why I don't think Mexicans have it all that bad, even if their wages are lower than ours. $1000 pesos for a year at school is probably less then what they spend finding their way from say Michoacan, and illegally into the USA. And then they have the nerve to complain that $500 pesos is a lot of money. Yep, about half the cost of that new CD Burner they have.......



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 2:29 PM

Views: 26835

    

Re: [scott] You are American

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 Scott THREAD # 48


Firstly, I must say that you and Marisol sure got my interest, and I agree with a lot, of what you both say although you are at extremities, and a bit hot under the collar.

"One thing I was trying to get at, is that I think its totally stupid that there is a part of Memphis Tenessee, that is completely black. I didn't mean Canada was perfect, but you will not find that at home. We should all assimilate, and live happily ever after in our new cultures."

You are partly right, I say partly because cities like Montreal (little burgundy which is mostly of color), Toronto etc... big cities do have their "Memphis", but on the other hand the rest of Canada is homogeneous, and much less prejudice than the US. This any person of color who has been in both countries will attest to that. When I was in the US Military I had many GIs of color come and talk to me, when it was known that I was a Canadian, because either they had been stationed in Canada, close to the border or told about Canada. i.e. I was stationed in Platsburgh NY and I would go to Montreal on the weekends, people are real friendly there, there color blind etc... (Oh, one exception to the above, when I was stationed at Ernest Harmon USAFB, Stephenville, Newfoundland, Canada Blacks were not welcome in town, although all other colors were allowed, I regret not trying to find the reason why, but I must also admit that the black and white situation on the base was worse than in town. I believe it was New Year's eve that a racial fight broke in the Airmen's Club, just one of many but this one got so bad, that the Air Police had to get on the stage with M16's and order everyone out and close the club for 3 days. I was myself attacked on the base by 3 black guys while I was walking 2 girls (white Canadians) to the main gate, because they were afraid to walk alone on the base. (that might explain why they were not Welcomed in town?) It got so bad at one point that they conducted a search of all the barracks and came up with boxes of knives and other assorted illegal weapons.

Before I go further I should tell a little bit about myself, to avoid unnecessary posts:
I live in Valleyfield, QC pop. approx. 40,000, 30 miles from Montreal. On my street 90% plus white, I see everyday, people of color going by this includes Orientals, Hispanics, Blacks and others in this order. I must also mention that I was 12 years first time I saw a person of color. My girl friend (soon to be wife) is Mexican and lives in a Ejido in Tamaulipas, Mexico, 109 Kms from the closest big city, Ciudad Victoria the capital of Tamps, were I also live when I am in Mexico (which should be permanent next year)

I am a Vietnam Vet and proud of it. I have spent 9 years in the US Air Force, I could have been US Citizen after 3 years but decided I did not want to drop my Canadian Citizenship, because back then you could not hold double citizenship like you can today.

I mention this to remove doubts that I may not have experience living in the US in 3 different states on 4 different Air Bases, also Canada, Mexico, Vietnam. Or that I have no experience living with different nationalities as well as colors, pun intended here, I have seen of all colors.

"We should all assimilate, and live happily ever after in our new cultures."

Amen brother, I have always remembered the quote "When in Rome do as the Romans do" I hope I got the quote right, you get the point. And this is what I always tried to do, and it served me well. When at Castle AFB, CA, an airmen who I was working with, had married a French girl (France) who did not speak english and he did not speak french, my being a french speaking Canadian I became their interpreter.

She steadily was saying, We in France and Those Americans etc.. So 1 year or 2 later they divorced, so I told her I guess you will be going back to France now. her answer was; no why, so I said; you have been complaining steadily about the US and bragging about France, I assumed you were unhappy here and would go back to France first opportunity, she said; me go back to France were they do not have all the conveniences they have here, No. I think there is a Moral here somewhere?

Constructive criticism is not only good, but probably the major thing to keep us on the straight and narrow. I did say "CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM"

"Don't cling to your latina roots, what's the point. If you think Mexican culture is so great, then go live in Mexico. If you are in the United States, assimilate."

I would rather say cling to your latina roots if it makes you feel good, but when outside of your latina world, respect the right of others to have their own roots. I left the US for Canada, because I was more comfortable with their policies and way of living, I feel Canada is more peaceful, and social than the US i.e. not so fast at warring, no death penalty, universal health care etc...

But now I am preparing to leave Canada for Mexico because it is more laid back, their value on family and social life, the economy is geared for a more relaxed life (less now than before regretfully, but still prevalent in the boonies and that's why, you would not catch me in a tourist or expat community, that's what I am running from) the climate etc... vs the rat race So yes I agree if you do not like a country, work at changing it in a respectful way or leave it.


""It sickens me when a person that clearly has advantages... "

What are my advantages? Please, I'd like to know.... The fact that I am white. Oh I see, that's why I have so many advantages in life. What about the dirt poor white person, who grew up in a trailer park with an abusive alcoholic father? Are you saying that kid has advantages too just because he is white? Because you know nothing about my life, you're just assuming that because I am white my life must be peachy keen without problems. White people don't have problems, they have so many advantages, etc etc. Give me a break, everyone in the world has problems. ""

You must admit that in a white community, specially, in the US you do have an advantage and there is a difference. I can see specially when I cross from Mexico into the US on foot, Mexicans getting their papers checked, I just say Canadian, they sometimes ask me for ID sometimes not. For example have you ever heard of profiling white Caucasians.

Your amazement with Memphis, kind of proves it, they are together in a neighborhood not as Marisol says for support, but by force of the economy, and prejudice that won't allow them to live in certain areas, and believe it or not they are prejudice in between themselves. I remember being in a black neighborhood in Florida and I was talking with this Black girl and a black guy came up to bum money off of me and the black girl said don't pay any attention to him is nothing but a niger, I said your black, she says yea I am black but he is a nigger. To them a no good black is a nigger.

You are right there are poor and prejudiced whites, but far fewer than other races.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 3:31 PM

Views: 26814

    

Re: [scott] Read Again the Post

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Scott,

I'm sorry for your experiences with people judging your by what you said and the two idiots who told you people in Mexico would hurt you for feeling the U.S. should attack Iraq. Well here's one for you. I hope the U.S. DOES get Saddam Hussain. As a matter of fact, many of my Mexican neighbors feel the same. We do not all have the same political views as we aren't cookie cutter varieties of people. Hell, there are Mexicans that would hate me for feeling the word 'gringo' is racist and I supported the U.S. in the Afghanistan invasion, because when you have maniacal leaders threatening the world with weapons of mass destruction or chemical warfare, I feel you need to remove the threat for the good of mankind.

You probably are surprised about this, right? I know you think I'm a complete, "knee jerk liberal" and for the most part you would be right, but I evaluate each circumstance based on it's own merit, not on popular thought or party line. I can say that those same two idiots would want to bomb the HELL out of Iraq if they were directly attacking Mexico so they are probably hypocrites as well.

I understand your feelings that my husband may not have changed. Many people feel that once a gang member always a gang member, even in Mexico. It was the reason he had difficulty meeting quality women when he was single. Because the ones that usually accepted him were vulgar, and the ones he wanted to be with were snobby. Honestly, I was hesitant myself, and was friends with him for a year before we got involved. We even double dated...LOL The two other things that completely turned me off was the fact that he drove a corvette, which I thought was a car that represented an extension of his manhood, and he was a muscle head, which I've NEVER been attracted to because I thought these types were superficial. I was wrong about all of it. But I confess, I did encourage him to sell the vette...LOL...because my girlfriends were having a field day with that one!

He has his own business now, Scott. He sells artwork. As I said, we've adopted four dogs, two cats and he occassionally brings home a stray, which I promptly have him take elsewhere. He nearly cries when he sees homeless dogs in Tijuana walking along the highway, and believe it or not, he was whimpering about the damn cockroaches I found dead on the floor after the exterminator did our house. His mother has twenty cats and the whole family is nuts. He really feels badly about his past life. Sometimes I see him thinking and I know he's thinking about all the crap he went through. He worships me for what he calls "bringing him back to life." You see, people in gangs usually are not happy. They have feelings too, even though they do some pretty awful things...now not all, but most. I'm not saying there aren't A-moral people out there, but for the most part, the kids that join gangs do so to belong to something, because they feel they belong to nothing.

You got me...I don't know about native life in Canada...so I apologize. I have no conception of growing up without seeing a minority neighborhood. And yes, I've seen wealthy minority neighborhoods and even lived in one...smile. My father was an artist and my mother was a model. As I said, I have a privileged life, and a spoiled advantaged one, in spite of the fact I'm Latina. Not all of us are broke.

I feel the laws in the U.S. with regards to any number of Latino issues clearly do prove that we are not advantaged as a people though. When I was younger, I grew up in the poor neighborhoods until my father made it in his career. I know the difference between the two. Oddly enough, I preferred the poorer neighborhoods, because I always felt closer to the folks there. When my father finally was making good money, I never felt close to my neighbors.

Okay, so round two. We got the lights up around the windows and now Netto is moving to the roof. God help the world because he's 250 pounds!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 3:56 PM

Views: 26813

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

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CanMex,

I'm sorry but to hear someone that is White tell me how I should approach being Latin is laughable. Should I provide you with advice on how to be White? Would you listen? Not likely!

I feel that respect is a two way street. If a person wants respect, then they are under an obligation to dish it out, and some of the crap I've read in these threads stating that Blacks are six times more violent than Whites yet oddly enough when that person listed the top violent countries there were no African countries on the list, should have provided an answer. Of course when I posted that, the post was deleted, yet that person's post was not. I did not say anything negative about Whites in that post, I simply explained the disparity of income, police harrassement, and several other factors that happen to Blacks. I'm sure this will be deleted as well, because information may escape and infect your minds.

I don't buy the views that ANY race is an authority on how others should behave. I don't buy it because you happen to have a Mexican significant other or even if she was your wife. I might buy it from your wife, since she is from my culture, but not from you. And in turn, I wouldn't propose to tell you how White people should behave, because while I'm half White and half Mexican, I don't propose to be an expert.

What I do know is that historically and currently there IS privilege for certain people. Those people happen to be White. Should you apologize for it? NO! Should it be changed? Yes. Racial profiling, racial intolerance, racial preferences in the workplace, financial arenas, and political arenas should not even be an issue in 2002 in the U.S. But it is.

The reason those Black folks live in enclaves in Memphis and have a decent financial portfolio has NOTHING to do with economics. It has to do with the fact that they feel a comfort with their own people that they don't feel with everyone. Why? Because SOME people have agendas that aren't favorable to their race. It's the same with Latinos. Many of us prefer our own communities to living in a homogenous community where our kids here racist jokes and Betty down the street boycotts against the color we choose for our house because SHE doesn't like the color green or whatever. We don't find that in our own communities.

When I lived in a brand new planned community in Mukilteo Washington, I found that I hated it. The neighbors were always trying to compete with me and when I raked my yard, laid compost and planted lawn seed, they stopped talking to me. It seems they were angry because I had lawn first. That wouldn't have happened in my old neighborhood. They would have asked how I did it and probably I would have helped them plant theirs.

Why is it that people that never lived in our skin, feel they have more knowledge about us than us? That never made sense to me. Have you ever had someone ask you if your parents slaughtered pigs in the yard because that's what they thought your race did? I have. Have you ever had someone tell you that you look exotic? I have and I hate it. I don't look different or exotic. I look very normal for my mix. You see? I could go on and on, but I won't bore you.

Learn about your future wife, by all means. But PLEASE don't profess to be an expert about something until you've worn the shoes.



pat

Nov 24, 2002, 4:03 PM

Views: 26811

    

Re: [Georgia] You are American

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"Mexicans find the Canadian and American straightforwardness very rude"

Heck, U.S. Southerners have found this behavior in their Yankee countrymen rude for the past few hundred years. If you find out how to change their behavior toward Mexicans, please let us know the secret. We will try it on them up here too. Heh heh :)

ducking and running

Pat



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 4:04 PM

Views: 26807

    

Re: [scott] $500 pesos / Semester for University

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Scott,

Please tell me that you don't think that your girlfriend is completely representative of all Mexicans. Do you realize how many Mexicans CAN'T afford a college education???

As far as the shopkeeper that sits in front of his shop...that shop keeper often makes very little money because business is not that good. Could he go to college and work? Probably not, because his hours would not coincide. Could he afford it? Do you really believe he'd have that shop if he could? Get real!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 4:08 PM

Views: 26811

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

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"Amen brother, I have always remembered the quote "When in Rome do as the Romans do" I hope I got the quote right, you get the point. And this is what I always tried to do, and it served me well. When at Castle AFB, CA, an airmen who I was working with, had married a French girl (France) who did not speak english and he did not speak french, my being a french speaking Canadian I became their interpreter."

Then please explain to me why Americans come to Mexico and EXPECT Mexicans to speak English to them...after all...when in Rome....

Also, why would they feel legalizing drugs is okay in Mexico, when they won't even do this in the U.S.? And why do they bring so many habits and expectations. I'm sorry, but you and I know this is b.s.

I think you meant, "Everyone else do as the Romans do, but by God let the U.S. citizens mandate to the world what their expectations are and they better be met."



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 4:17 PM

Views: 26094

    

Argued Out

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Hi, its interesting reading your opinions, I'd like to see more opinions as well. But as for myself, I think I got my point across, and well, I'm a little argued out for now.....

Would you believe I just met a white person claiming to be Japanese??? Thats a first...... Like, she just got here from Japan Japanese.... Jennifer Rose, if you're reading, thats not another gringo in Santa Maria!



Brad.

Nov 24, 2002, 4:30 PM

Views: 26091

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas and Scott] ¿Les cuento el cuento de nunca acabar? nmg

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¿Te lo cuento otra vez?



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 5:30 PM

Views: 26079

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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MARISOL, I am having a hard time figuring you out. I know you mean well, you sound intelligent, understanding, caring etc... on all but the subject of drug legalization. I would be willing to bet that you can read a pro drug legalization post and only remember that you are against, by the time you get through reading it. If not, you sure work hard, to try and prove that you don't.

I have yet to see you agree with one word of all the pro drug legalization posts. And you admit yourself QUOTE fm post # 58 "so I won't waste my time with you on this."UNQUOTE Does this mean that you know it all, and don't need to know more, or does it just mean that you are on a one track mind and damn the torpedoes no matter what?

I have read all the posts in this thread, and I have not seen one state that Marijuana does not cause damage or that it is not addictive, as a matter of fact most say that it does and so does tobaco and alcohol.

Yet you say QUOTE # 58 "As far as the Marijuana debate, it's obvious you haven't read a medical resport or psychological report on the effects of prolonged use"

Have you read a medical report on damage and addiction of tobacco and alcohol?

I will just tell you from experience, I have seen more than one person quit drinking and Marijuana, but unable to quit tobacco.

Are you a smoker or have you ever been, if so either you are still smoking or had a hell of a time quitting.

Where did you get the idea that the FDA and AMA disagree with Canadian Senators? The Senators never said that it was not addictive or not damagable. Their recommendation is based pretty much on the same reasons that tobacco and alcohol are legal. And who do you think would give money for lobbying for legalizing drugs, certainly not traffickers.

Yet you say QUOTE #58 "The FDA and AMA disagree with a group of Canadian Senators, and honestly, my money would go on the wisdom and experience of physicians educated in the area rather than people that decide things based on lobby dollars. Again, please read the medical and psychological reports before you spurt out these silly references."

You also say QUOTE #58 "It's also obvious you don't have any experience with the violence associated with distribution of it. Some people prefer to live in la la land rather than accept the facts and I don't waste time trying to sway these folks because they aren't worth the effort."

Are you saying that legalization would increase the violence with the distribution? Why would it cause more violence, than the distribution of tobacco and alcohol?

Let me pull a Doctor Phil here; How has illegality, of Marijuana, for over 50 years, been working for you?

Ask your husband, if he would have been dealing Marijuana, if you could have bought it at the corner store cheaper than cigarettes. Ask him, if Marijuana dealers would have existed, and a lot less, cause violence.

Do you realize they could be selling Marijuana cheaper than cigarettes and still collecting Billions in tax money, that they could put to work against all kinds of substances. Even if you had some people switch from tobacco to Marijuana it would be a blessing since smoking tobacco is more damageable and addictive than Marijuana. they could then, more easily quit Marijuana.

Just be sure that you are not the one living in la la land.

Do you think that maybe there could be more to legalization, than what meets the eye, would it be worth looking into this a little further. Thanks for your attention.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 6:32 PM

Views: 26079

    

Re: [scott] Argued Out

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Scott,

I like you more and more...smile. I hope we don't get censored, because I think you and I have developed a nice discourse, even with all the disagreement. THIS is why I love forums like this. You get an opportunity to grow and learn from others.

I find you to be a remarkable man. The fact that you stand by your opinions impresses me, even if we disagree on some philosophic basics. What I like, is the fact that you actually DO care about Mexican people even if it wasn't entirely reflected here. I feel your caring and I know you are trying to learn more. That to me, is what forums are for.

I too am learning. Honestly, I never realized how isolated Canada was from the Latino culture. I took it for granted that it was very much like the U.S. Thank you for teaching me something new.

Take care, and again...you and your family are lovely.

Marisol



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 6:41 PM

Views: 26075

    

Re: [Brad Smith] ¿Les cuento el cuento de nunca acabar? nmg

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Brad,

La historia otra vez! Por que? No se!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 7:15 PM

Views: 26068

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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"MARISOL, I am having a hard time figuring you out."

A lot of people do CanMex...LOL In summation, I've always been an oddball! I think the problem lies in the fact that people try to conveniently slot others into neat little categories. The fact is, some of us just don't fit into those nice little square peg holes. If it provides you comfort, they say the same thing at work. They say, "oh that's Marisol, she's in Marketing and she does the ads," and that conveniently explains that I'm some entity that doesn't quite fit into the engineering mindset even though I market engineering ideas...LOL If it helps, I've been analyzed with an extreme right-brain with left brained ideas...and a tendency to be a Creative Directive. To me, it's mumbo jumbo for the fact that I am probably autistic rather than artistic.

"I have yet to see you agree with one word of all the pro drug legalization posts." That's because I don't agree and I never will based on experiences I had in life and the people I've known, not to mention a brief stint out of college as a medical underwriter for individual policies. I read enough medical charts and spoke to enough physicians to realize that marijuana was not the innocent drug that many pot smokers try to make it out to be.

As far as cigarettes and alcohol, I completely agree. No, I do not smoke, never have, never will. I do have an occasional drink but it's really not my thing either. My husband doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs at all...but he's a complete health nut. I like meat too much to eat chicken and tuna all day...so we have a disagreement in diet.

I haven't said that I feel substituting ONE substance for another is healthy...You are assuming that. I feel it all is bad, including alcohol. I think a well adjusted person can enjoy life without any of it and that's why I rarely embibe in alcohol any more. I drank a bit when I was younger, but I've never been a real BIG drinker.

"Where did you get the idea that the FDA and AMA disagree with Canadian Senators? The Senators never said that it was not addictive or not damagable." Can I refer you to Scott's post? Actually in that post they did. And the FDA and AMA would not agree with that standpoint in any realm. As a matter of fact, I don't see any of the medical community saying, "by all means, smoke a joint." Why? Because they don't endorse the use of marijuana because it is not healthy.

"Are you saying that legalization would increase the violence with the distribution? Why would it cause more violence, than the distribution of tobacco and alcohol?"

Yes, I'm saying that promoting drug use would increase the violence and increase the lack of ambition that goes along with it's use. I'm saying that smoking pot does not enhance one's existance and that a human being has better odds of succeeding in life without using it. I'm saying that the temporary memory loss from smoking pot would indicate that it is not a healthy substance to inhale and I'm saying that if you don't have to use it to numb you, one is better off.

I'm also saying that the legalization of cigarettes has caused a high degree of lung cancer and other assorted illnesses, enough so that they've had to alter advertising to protect the consumers, some of which are under age. I'm saying that the consumption of alcohol has contributed to many deaths as people get behind the wheel and don't realize they are impaired, just as the legalization of pot might do. I'm saying that the legalization of alcohol has also contributed to a high degree of spousal abuse and family breakups and I would say that pot abuse might have the same effects. I'm saying that substituting ONE distributor for another would not cure these problems but legalization of the substance probably would enhance them.

"Let me pull a Doctor Phil here; How has illegality, of Marijuana, for over 50 years, been working for you?"

In answer to your question, yes it has for me personally.

"Ask your husband, if he would have been dealing Marijuana, if you could have bought it at the corner store cheaper than cigarettes. Ask him, if Marijuana dealers would have existed, and a lot less, cause violence."

Actually he was dealing arms, but I just asked him and do you want to hear his answer? He said he would have been dealing other drugs if it hadn't been marijuana, so legalization of that drug would not fix the problem. Now, based on that, should we legalize heroine too? How about methamphetimines? What next? I mean based on your argument, if we legalize these things there would be no more problems with those pesky gang members dealing drugs, right? Ah, but then guns are legal and they deal those! So....maybe we could legalize murder and that would solve that little pesky problems. No more drive by shootings outlawed, that's for sure! And then we could legalize theft. Do you feel me here?

Actually, marijuana smoke is ten times worse on one's lungs than tobacco because they hold it in...but I won't bore you with the stats on that.

In summation, NO, I don't think there could be more to legalization than meets the eye for the examples I've provided above. I think justifying a need for a substance only substantiates failure in one's life. Why not provide people with something more positive, like the ability to THINK CLEARLY and have short term and long term memory. Why not promote something that hasn't proven to be mentally addictive and allow people to reach their potential. Don't you feel that would be a more POSITIVE battle to take on?

My dear CanMex, I lived in Santa Cruz, the land of the burnt out hippies. Anyone can travel through town and see the wonderful aftermath of such "creative" thinking as legalizing pot. I'll give you a prime example. I was walking by a street corner one day. A young man puffing on a blunt had a circle of quarters laid out on the sidewalk in the shape of a peace sign. It only needed three or so quarters to complete the circle. He told the other young man, "help me complete my peace sign dude."

The young man reached down and grabbed all the quarters and put them in his pocket and said, "done." The blunt smoking man, looked befuddled and amazed. It clearly had never occurred to him that there were many ways to think about completing that circle. I surmise if he had been drug free, that may not have ever happened. As a matter of fact, he may not have been on the street corner at all, because he probably would have had a higher degree of motivation. THAT is why I'm opposed to marijuana.

Also, because I watched a dear friend have their life go steadily downhill because they couldn't go a day without smoking the stuff. It went from a joint while partying to waking up to a joint. Then a joint at lunch during work, then after work and eventually this man went from someone that was caring and warm and creative to a zombie. Miss me with that!



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 7:29 PM

Views: 26067

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Marisol,

I did not tell you, latina or not, how you should approach being latin or anything else. You seem to have a tendency to spin things. I was merely telling Scott that I didn't agree with his comment that you should not cling to your latina roots. You can read it again below, apparently you do not remember.

QUOTE"Don't cling to your latina roots, what's the point. If you think Mexican culture is so great, then go live in Mexico. If you are in the United States, assimilate."

I would rather say cling to your latina roots if it makes you feel good, but when outside of your latina world, respect the right of others to have their own roots. UNQUOTE

How did you come to this conclusion QUOTE I'm sorry but to hear someone that is White tell me how I should approach being Latin is laughable. Should I provide you with advice on how to be White? Would you listen? Not likely! UNQUOTE

I can understand that there have been prejudice comments made, but why the hell are you take it out on me? And when have I made prejudice statements? And when have I given views that a race was an authority on how others behave? And what the hell has my girlfriend to do with this? The only thing I have said about behaving, is that it should be done with respect to others. As far as I am concerned we are all free to do what we want, just as long as it does not hurt anyone else.

As far as this statement I fully agree with, except for the racial part. Privilege for certain people I agree, where I disagree is "Those people happen to be white. There are millions of people of color who are priviliged, where have you been? QUOTE "What I do know is that historically and currently there IS privilege for certain people. Those people happen to be White. Should you apologize for it? NO! Should it be changed? Yes. Racial profiling, racial intolerance, racial preferences in the workplace, financial arenas, and political arenas should not even be an issue in 2002 in the U.S. But it is. UNQUOTE

As far as this statement, again I agree with everything, except the economical part. Sure those that are well off, and living in a good safe neighborhood are not wanting to leave, but you just go in the poor neighborhoods, and they will tell you, they wish they had the money to get their family out of there, and move to a safe drug free neighborhood. Maybe you should go slumming and learn something. QUOTE "The reason those Black folks live in enclaves in Memphis and have a decent financial portfolio has NOTHING to do with economics. It has to do with the fact that they feel a comfort with their own people that they don't feel with everyone. Why? Because SOME people have agendas that aren't favorable to their race. It's the same with Latinos. Many of us prefer our own communities to living in a homogenous community where our kids here racist jokes and Betty down the street boycotts against the color we choose for our house because SHE doesn't like the color green or whatever. We don't find that in our own communities. UNQUOTE


QUOTE "Why is it that people that never lived in our skin, feel they have more knowledge about us than us? That never made sense to me. Have you ever had someone ask you if your parents slaughtered pigs in the yard because that's what they thought your race did? I have. Have you ever had someone tell you that you look exotic? I have and I hate it. I don't look different or exotic. I look very normal for my mix. You see? I could go on and on, but I won't bore you. UNQUOTE

You say skin, I say shoes, because it is the same for everyone. And I say before you condemn somebody you should put yourself in their shoes. If someone asked me if my parents slaughtered pigs in the yard, I would have to say yes and I had to help with the gutting and the cleaning of the carcass, when we needed chicken, it was my job to chop the head off. And anybody who has not done that, and eats meat, are just paying someone else to do it for them, which is worse? Exotic, everyone is exotic in a different land, when I was in Vietnam, Vietnamese who had never seen light eyes and light hair found us exotic, even those who had seen it before were kind of attracted to looking and touching. What hit me the most was when I went into a bar and asked the barmaid, who had served us the day before, if she had seen the guy I was with yesterday. Her Reply was how should I know, you alll look alike to me. It sure gave me something to think about, You see, it's all relative.

QUOTE "Learn about your future wife, by all means. But PLEASE don't profess to be an expert about something until you've worn the shoes." UNQUOTE

I have learned everything I need to know for now, in the past 5 years we have lived together for approx. 1 year on and off, and for a year now we have worked out, all our differences and are confident that we will be able to work out, all future problems.

I don't know your life history, but I would suggest to you, to heed your own advice.

I have lived in a 10X10 house, with her and her 2 kids, and sometimes the chickens. I have taken care of the goats with her. I am used to walking outside to the water tap (no inside plumbing) and going to the outhouse, killed a few chickens etc...

Thanks for your input.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 7:38 PM

Views: 26055

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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Now I have a question for you...

Why are you all so interested in inflicting this little social experiement of legalizing pot on the people of Mexico? Why wouldn't you inflict this on your own countries?

Don't you think that the poverty levels in Mexico would indicate that many lives could possibly be ruined if the experiment failed and they indeed DID become addicted to pot? And if you feel so adamant about pot being legalized, then why not PROVE you are right in your own respective countries?



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 8:03 PM

Views: 26059

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Marisol,

You have a tendency to generalize, I agree with you that those who do that should not, and I have seen some ignorant Americans, one of them a retired professor he acted like if, Mexico was a colony of the US and that they should cater to his every wish, to the point that I would not go anywhere with him anymore.

But then you have many of them who are respectful and try to learn the language If they already have not. Personnally I bought a course in Spanish for my computer one year before I went to Mexico. I can read, write, understand and talk where I can be understood in Spanish, my girl friend can count to 8 in english that's were she quit.

As far as legalizing drugs, they are talking about everywhere period. The Canadians and the Americans have been talking about it for a long time I don't know about Mexico, although someone said that Fox was talking about it (hear say)

Again when I said, do as the Romans, that was for everybody everywhere. Don't take things so personnal. As I said before, you have a tendency to read in, things that are not meant.

Hasta luego



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 8:06 PM

Views: 26063

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

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Please read the following quote from your post...

"I did not tell you, latina or not, how you should approach being latin or anything else. You seem to have a tendency to spin things. I was merely telling Scott that I didn't agree with his comment that you should not cling to your latina roots."

Why would you even assume to tell anyone what I should do with my Latina roots? Are you Latino? Have you experienced the event? Do you see my point? I don't think either one of you would have any life experience as a Latino, based on what you've told me about your roots to explain this to me.

"I would rather say cling to your latina roots if it makes you feel good, but when outside of your latina world, respect the right of others to have their own roots. UNQUOTE"

My dear, I would rather say, don't propose to tell others what they should do with their heritage, unless you've lived in their shoes. However, I DO respect the rights of others to have their roots as I've continually posted.

I have not indicated that you are prejudiced, but that you assume the right to tell others how to approach their cultural associations. Now, that might be assumed to be attempting to take some privilege except that I don't think you realize it. It's like me saying to a Gay person, "well in my opinion, you should approach being gay like this..." I think the Gay person might wonder if I was out of my head, since I have no experience being gay, even though I have a ton of friends that are indeed Gay.

So you are denying that historically there was white privilege? My dear, history books may disagree with you. Are you denying that it still occurs? Then what is racial profiling? Why is there such a disparity in the incomes of minorities and whites? Why is the housing and economic disparity so great? Why is it that statistically minorities are more likely to serve a sentence for committing the same crime as whites? Why is there a disparity in the amount of medical treatment that minorities obtain compared to whites? No privilege? That's hocky puck and you know it if you look at the stats.

As far as slumming, I spent all the way up to Junior High in some pretty nice barrios...smile. Not everyone wanted to get out of there. Some liked the fact that they had friends and neighbors that they related to in those neighborhoods, which is why many affectionately refer to them as, "the hood." Maybe YOU should go slumming. You might learn that some of us miss those relationships and actually PREFERRED the relationships we had in those ghetto neighborhoods. After all my dear, it's not ALL bad! Yes, there are other factors that make you want to leave. When the plumbing is broken and not fixed you aren't saying..."gee, I love it here." When kids fight you because of any assortment of reasons it's not glamorous, but I can tell you that one of my best friends STILL, beat the hell out of me in grade school. She jumped me with three other girls and ripped my top off. I was humiliated and pretty beat up...and guess what? Later we got to know one another and I love her dearly to this day! I think you watch too much t.v. Even the gang bangers used to watch out for me, even though I didn't want anything to do with them. Why? Because I lived on their street...their territory...and I was part of their "hood" even though they thought I was a snotty bitch that felt she was better than them and they frequently made fun of me and sent me home crying. Later on, I found out that one of them had a crush on me...which may have been why he worked so hard to make me cry. Basically, I was considered a geek in my neighborhood.

When we moved to an upscale neighborhood, I can tell you at first I liked it, but I ended up missing that feeling of belonging and the smells of my old neighborhood and the old lady down the street that used to give me cookies and candy, and the old crazy man that had too many cats, and even the old Irish lady that was married to a Mexican man that cheated on her. I missed them all and visited a great deal.

Exotic to me means different. Different is a relative term. Different than what? In the United States, there are so many cultures, which one would I be different to? I'm sorry, but I HATE the term...but that is a personal dislike. Oddly enough, my light-skinned Black friend feels the same about it, so I surmise there may be others.

Before you suggest to others how they should perceive themselves, may I suggest you bite your tongue and try perceiving yourself? We all have the capabiltiy to change and I don't think any ONE race has the margin on how other races should act. That, in my mind is up to them.

By the way, I'm not picking on you. I'm telling you that I do not appreciate you trying to educate me about myself. That is quite logical.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 24, 2002, 8:11 PM

Views: 26054

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

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CanMex,

I am talking specifically about Latino culture and Mexico...so yes I'm generalizing like everyone else. I did not say that every American comes to Mexico with the same attitude, but we both know many do.

As I said, if you aren't a citizen of Mexico, then why try to force your values and ideas on Pot to them? Try your social experiments in places first where you ARE a citizen and allow the Mexicans to form their own conclusions. As of now, they feel it should be illegal. If they change their mind on that, as an American citizen, I will respect their decisions. it's not my right to ram my beliefs down another country's throat...no matter how strongly I feel about it...get it?



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 8:57 PM

Views: 26048

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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I, for one, don't believe that a person has lived life until they've tried a few hits of Acid, or at least mushrooms. In my humble opinion, neither are addictive, and neither are harmful. Even if the government completely regulated it, and only allowed each citizen one night a year to try it, I honestly believe people have a god given right to know what LSD is like. This does not mean I endorse people tripping every weekend, with people wandering around on LSD everywhere you look. But, I feel the government has no right, none at all, to deny the use of LSD. Even if it is only allowed under supervision by a registered psychologist, or something. Essentially, my argument is that, if there is no direct harm in something such as LSD, which is not physically addictive either, then no one has the right to deny you of that experience.

I hardly drink, and hardly ever do drugs. I absolutely refuse to go near anything such as cocaine, heroine, etc, and never in my life will I even try those. Because I believe they are addictive, physically. I don't believe Marijuana, mushrooms, lsd, and probably other stuff like peyote are bad for you, in moderation. That does not mean I am a drug addict.

The last time I smoked Marijuana was in January. My friend and I got dirt cheap air fare to Waikiki, so we went for a week, stayed for dirt cheap in a hostel, etc.. Anyway we met some other people, went out to a resaurant, then we went to go to a disco. Well, all my friends went in, and its up a staircase right at the door, and well when it was my turn, the bouncers informed me that in the United States of America, it is against the law for a 20-and-a-half year old to go to a night club. My friends already inside, I started telling my sad story to a random stranger. To cheer me up, he said "lets go smoke a joint", and so we went and sat on a park bench and smoked some hash.

That was the last time. Now tell me that your drinking laws in the United States are not completely stupid. Here in Mexico, young girls can go to the disco. I've had a 15 year old in my company, going to the disco. She had maybe one beer, and that was that. Its not a big deal. They can control themselves, and they don't go crazy and poisen themselves with alcohol the first time they get their hands on it.

So if a kid can't drink in the United States until they are 21, naturally, they are just going to go find some weed. Just like I did. This is why prohibition of anything is silly. If kids can smoke a little weed, they might do it here and there. And they won't have to get involved with shady people to do it. Smoking a little weed never did anyone any harm. Its not a big deal. Personally, I don't like it. It makes me think to much. I think about things I don't want to think about. It makes me slightly paranoid. So, personally I don't like it very much. But, that does not mean I don't think people have a god given right to smoke it if they want to. Who are you to say a blue collar factory worker can't come home and smoke a joint before bed. If thats how he wants to live his life, thats his prerogative. You or anyone else have no right to say this blue collar factory worker can't smoke his marijuana after work, just because you have seen several people who can't handle it. For the majority, its not a problem. People have a god given right to smoke marijuana, or any other drug that is not harmful.

Cocaine, no. I accept as fact that if you snort cocaine twice or more, your body becomes to some degree dependant on it. I accept this, and the obvious consequences, and therefore I am not suggesting legalization. Well, except maybe once per year under supervised conditions, or something. People have a right to do whatever they want, as long as it does not directly affect anyone else. I do not accept that marijuana, mushrooms, lsd, and possibly others, are directly harmful. Or really, even indirectly harmful. Its more harmful that people risk eating a bad mushroom, and dying 2 hours later, than if the mushrooms were grown and picked under government supervised conditions, where you know that what you are eating is really a shroom.

Likewise, I think that if I am a Canadian citizen, I have a god given right to get on a plane in Toronto and fly to Mexico, without neither the airline or government knowing who I am. That is, of course, if I volunteer to go through the 'strip search' line, or something up that alley. I feel, the government has no bloody right to invade on anyones privacy, or right to do what they want if it is not directly harmful to anyone else.

Why? I'm afraid I don't have faith in the government. I feel special influence groups have to much power to persuade. I don't feel people are smart enough to elect good politicians. I for one, have a hell of a lot more faith in the Supreme Court of Canada, than I do in the government as far as creating proper and just laws. I have a hell of a lot more faith in Canadian judges, and Canadian senators, as neither are elected, than members of parliment (congress?). They are appointed, presumably on merit, and I have more faith in them as a result. They do not have to answer to, or risk loosing their jobs based on the power of special interest groups to persuade.

I'm going to bring up something fairly controversial, just to illustrate my point. Under not-tested-in-court Canadian law, it was illegal to describe, or write about, even in your own diary, anything involving sexuality of people under the age of 18 years old. But, the legal age of consent in Canada is 14, nation wide. This made it illegal, for example, for a 17 year old boy to write in his diary about having sex, or loosing his virginity to his 16 year old girlfriend.

So, we have a pedophile named William Sharpe. He wrote boy love stories. Perhaps the police confiscated a story he wrote about his neighbors child. Yes, its evil. And under written law, illegal. So he went to court, etc, etc, and eventually it reached the supreme court.

The supreme court ruled that, it is constitutional to outlaw distribution of these stories, as it could be harmful to someone. But, they also said it violates freedom of expression to deny someone their constitutional right to remember their own thoughts. Hence, the final ruling, Mr. Sharpe is allowed to write his stories, as long as he never, ever, ever in his entire life shows them to anyone. Likewise, they declared it legal for a 17 year old boy to write in his diary about his sexual relations with his girlfriend, as long as he too, never in his entire life showed them to anyone.

Well, every special interest group in the whole damn country accused the Supreme Court of legalizing child pornography. These special interest groups caused quite a ruckas.

The point is this. No elected person would ever want to deal with all these special interest groups, and hence, would never propose a law saying "yes, a 17 year old can write about sexual relations in a diary, as long as he never shows anyone". They would never do this, first because who the hell would openly advocate something like this, lest every special interest group in the country label him a pedophile, and second, what member of parliment would ever support this, for fear of being smeared as being a pedophile himself during election time.

But really, whats the big deal. Is it really a crime for a 17 year old to write about his feelings, if he never shows anyone? Who does it hurt? No one. But, the government of Canada thinks its a crime. Because they have to answer to very powerful special interest groups.

So. The moral of this story is that it took unelected people, who don't risk losing their jobs, to find this unconstitutional. Secondly, given the chance, government will be more than happy to take everyones rights away. Thirdly, sure it was a noble idea outlawing boy love stories. But, it has unintended consequences. You outlaw teenage diaries, where otherwise law abiding teens risk going to jail for writing about a LEGAL activity in their diary.

If these teens aren't doing anything harmful, why should it be illegal? Sure you can say, "oh they will never get caught, so whats the big deal?". But thats not the point. They shouldn't even have a thread of uncertainty that they risk going to jail, for something so completely innocent.

Essentially, by saying marijuana should be outlawed for everyone, because you've seen poor latinos who can't handle it, you are saying in effect the same thing as teenage girls shouldn't be allowed to write about their legal sexual intercourse in their diaries, because the distribution of boy love stories is bad. Do you understand the connection I am trying to make? You inadvertantly affect otherwise law abiding citizens, by outlawing something completely that only a small fraction of the population has problems with. The other parallel I'd like to draw with this is that I'm sure there are many, boat loads of people who would otherwise support legalization of something so innocent as marijuana, or teenage girls writing in their diaries, but don't for fear of being labeled either a pedophile or drug addict. People have careers, et cetera, to think about.

Therefore, I think it should just be legalized, because people shouldn't have to fight for these basic rights, they should just have them by default. I mean, people who enjoy marijuana should not have to risk stating that openly, especially when it is something so trivial. Its a basic right, if they themselves are not hurting anyone.

And finally, just to directly link this, just as I have faith in the unelected supreme court to protect the rights granted in the constitution, I have more faith in an unelected senate committee based on merit, when they say Canadians should be allowed to smoke marijuana. I have more faith in their report, than any report out of any other government agency. If the Senate says marijuana is not harmful, it won't tarnish the image of any one. Its just their recommendation based on a long term study. If Health Canada, ie a government organization, supported legalization, it would directly impact the image of the minister responsible for that department, and in turn, the government.

In conclusion, if the Senate of Canada says marijuana should be legal, I believe them. But of course, its not going to happen any time soon, as long as the United States is still our neighbor to the south. Unless the supreme court, unelected, declared it unconstitional, and hence the government could claim they have no power over it.

Oh one more interesting tidbit about Canadian politics. Did you know the Supreme Court of Ontario ruled it violated a womens right to not let her go topless, just like men? It took the Supreme Court of Ontario to do that. Can you imagine any elected politician bringing a "Lets let women go topless" bill to the table?". Not likely.

I hope this made sense.



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 9:06 PM

Views: 26047

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Marisol,

Again you are taking things out of context, I did not agree with Scott telling you to drop your latina roots because it is your right but then it is also your responsibility to be respectful of others, and this for me and/or anyone else.

What would be wrong with me saying to a Gay person cling to your Gay persuasion if that's what does it for you, but when outside of your Gay world, respect the right of others to have their own sexual preference.

And I don't intend to hash that one again.

Again spinning. I never have said that there was no White privilege (and I could take offence but I won't, that you single out Whites on an issue that applies to all races) I merely pointed out that privilege was not restricted to White but to all Colors. And not only now but since the beginning of man, who do you think was gathering the Blacks to be sold for slavery, Blacks were and then selling them to whites.

As far as ethnic neighborhoods, you admit yourself that some want to get out of there, you not all want to get out. So what was so bad of me saying that.

You are right exotic means different, and it applies to everything, culture, looks, race also people animals etc...

Again you are spinning, I never told anyone or suggested to anyone how to perceive themselves and I have never stated that one race was better than an other.

I am not trying to educate you, I keep telling you not to take things personnal that are not ment to be.



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 9:14 PM

Views: 26042

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Marisol,



Again you are jumping to conclusion and/or spinning, in reference to your statement below. People discussing this issue are from 2 o3 different countries, and are talking in general, I have not seen one post that specified a country.



"As I said, if you aren't a citizen of Mexico, then why try to force your values and ideas on Pot to them? Try your social experiments in places first where you ARE a citizen and allow the Mexicans to form their own conclusions. As of now, they feel it should be illegal. If they change their mind on that, as an American citizen, I will respect their decisions. it's not my right to ram my beliefs down another country's throat...no matter how strongly I feel about it...get it? "



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 9:20 PM

Views: 26045

    

Marijuana Party of Canada

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Why are you all so interested in inflicting this little social experiement of legalizing pot on the people of Mexico? Why wouldn't you inflict this on your own countries?

Inflict has negative connotations. Legalization of marijuana is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It should be done everywhere.

I voted for the Marijuana Party of Canada, in the last federal election. I was lucky to have a candidate in my riding. Unfortunately, only a fraction of the ridings had candidates. Nevertheless, I believe they received something like 66,000 votes or more, and our country has 31 million people. 66,000 Canadians used their vote to support the legalization of marijuana.

This party supports marijuana legalization, and absolutely nothing else. They keep their mouthes shut on all other issues. They got my support because I felt they were the only party to actually support personal freedom.



CanMex

Nov 24, 2002, 9:40 PM

Views: 26044

    

Re: [scott] Marijuana Party of Canada

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Scott,



I just had an after tought, have you heard about the isolated village in Quebec or Newfoundland, I don't remember which, where the kids were inhaling gasoline fumes for getting high, and a few of them died.



They tried for a year or so to get them to stop and could not, they finally had to get them out of there, and in an institution to treat them.



This is a good exemple that making drugs illegal won't work. In this case there were no drugs available but the kids found something else. Proof that the problem is not with the legalization or illegalization, but with the way children are raised.



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 9:43 PM

Views: 26055

    

Mexican Slaves

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who do you think was gathering the Blacks to be sold for slavery, Blacks were and then selling them to whites.

See... Its always white people. White people this, white people that. How come no one ever mentions black slavery in Mexico? Eh? Only evil white Americans had black slaves I guess...

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/brief.htm

How come we all know about black slavery by white America, and not by Mexicans?



scott

Nov 24, 2002, 10:24 PM

Views: 26048

    

Sniffing Gas / Drug Prices in Mexico.

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Yes, that is very sad. And an excellent example.

I had this in the back of my mind, during earlier rants, but didn't know or think of how I could use it to further my point, without making it look overtly racist towards natives..........

Marisol, there is a tendency among poor, hopeless native Canadians, to sniff gasoline. We are not making this up, its a fact. Maybe a year or so ago, or less I can't remember, a native reserve declared a state of emergency, or something, because they couldn't get their kids to stop sniffing gasoline. I think the government took them to a special place. And if I recall correctly, after some period of time, I saw an update stating these kids were back to sniffing gas. This happened in Newfoundland, the most eastern Canadian province.

Is it better for kids to grow some marijuana in their parents garden, at a cost of absolutely nothing, and smoke that, or to be sniffing gasoline? Assuming these kids are going to be looking for something to ease their pain, no matter what.

I'm going to show you something else Marisol, you could quite possibly be aware of this. Have you ever researched the price of drugs in Mexico?

These are well known statistics on the Internet, usd:

Zoloft in Canada: $1.07
Zoloft in Mexico: $1.96
Difference: 83% more expensive in Mexico.

Paxil in Canada: $1.13
Paxil in Mexico: $1.83
Difference: 62% more expensive in Mexico.

These are two of the ten best selling drugs in the United States, both used for depression. First of all, its crazy that the drugs are so much more expensive in Mexico than Canada, and second, how is a Mexican making 10 pesos an hour supposed to afford $1.83 or $1.96 / day in medication?

This to me, is very sad. I feel very sad knowing that there are probably many thousands of people, or young people, who would benefit greatly from these medications. But how are they supposed to afford these prices in Mexico? Not only are the prices so much more than in Canada, but if you look at it based on percentage of daily income, I'm sure Mexicans are getting royally screwed.

If marijuana were legalized, they could just smoke weed instead. Ok, that isn't actually serious. But its a thought anyway.

www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/trips_e/hosbjor_presentations_e/40love2_e.pdf

(disclaimer: Prozac is in fact cheaper in Mexico)



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 4:58 AM

Views: 26032

    

Re: [scott] Read Again the Post

|
Scott,

I realized by your tenacity towards fighting for marijuana, that it probably was something you used occassionally, so this post is not exactly news. What surprised me was the LSD referernces. All I can say to this is I'm sorry for you and it might explain some of the other things.

I will respond to both you and CanMex here. Drugs are illegal in Mexico. Yes, kids sniff paint fumes. Yes, kids do any number of things to get high in lieu of drugs. Kids also shoot up heroine. They also car surf. Sometimes they drive too fast and race on public highways. As a matter of fact, there are kids that participate in MTV's Jackass show and others who think it's "cool" to push the envelope. Some of these kids grow up and never get injured. Others end up as quadreplegics or with severe injuries. The moral of this story is teenagers are still growing and developing and defining their personalities. Social psychologists will cite you the stages of development and explain to you that teenagers are in a stage of development just before adulthood, where they are defining themselves and experimenting with new roles.

People that smoke pot at parties while young, for the most part mature out of it. Many of the foolish things we do in our youth, we age out of. Even gang members age out of it, so I don't tend to hold people's poor decision making against them. I believe you may age out of your current views on drugs as well, because you seem like a very intelligent man.

If you want every drug in the world legal in Canada, that is your business because that is your country. But to inflict, and yes Scott...with the current medical data it IS inflicting, this social experiment on a country that already is reeling from past governments and poverty, when they can't even afford to fix the current problems they have, then you are pushing your views on them. As I said, if Mexico chooses to legalize drugs then I will respect that. But the idea that I know what is best for the people of Mexico and their well-being seems a bit arrogant to me and I won't take that privilege, nor should they give it to me.

This arrogant attitude that both of you have that you know what is best for the world pisses me off at times. It is PRECISELY the privilege that I've been discussing, and it is only more sickening when it is accompanied with the wholesale denial of privilege...albeit it is the latest version of political correctness among many Whites today. The other one, is to call the minority angry or unhappy, or imply that when they defend their right to equality, they are somehow militant. Some approach it by telling people like me that I need to "smile" more, implying that somehow my belief in myself implies that I lead a very unhappy life. Very few like you tend to see how militant you are in trying to ram YOUR opinions on what minorities should do or act like as militant or even at the best, EXTREMELY SELF-SERVING and RUDE.

I surmise nothing I say here will change that because both of you are in denial about even having the right to tell me how I should approach living in my own culture. CanMex dances around dialogue by saying he simply is "telling me" that I should approach my Latin roots like this....however I should treat others with respect." He doesn't get that he doesn't have the right to "tell me" anymore than I have the right to TELL HIM how to approach being Canadian. He keeps missing the point!

As far as the marijuana debate....and Mexico...I'm not nearly egotistical enough to feel that my views on this are the last word for the Mexican people! As far as the marijuana debate for MY country? I feel that legalizing pot would be a disaster for the reasons I have stated. Does this mean I go out into life in some evangelical attempt to stop all pot smoking? No. As a matter of fact I have friends in Playas that smoke pot and while I won't allow it at my house, I don't preach to them. They are adults and have made their decisions and the decisions they make will or will not affect their lives. One young man I know here though, seems like he has difficulty these days without a joint and just had a baby, so I have my opinions on that, but unless he asks, I don't get involved. I certainly don't hate him for his poor decision making.

What I don't understand is the fact that you appear to hate kids that make a choice to join a gang, yet you endorse drug use. What's the difference? Those kids could argue that they have the right to hang around in groups and just because SOME kids beat up others doesn't mean they will. Besides, they are helping you obtain your drugs by doing you the favor of distributing them and heck, according to you, that's a good thing, right? So what if a person get's shot occassionally! It's all for the good of mankind, because as we know, you can't fully develop as a human being until you've altered your mind....just ask Timothy Leary.



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 6:02 AM

Views: 26029

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

|
Marisol,

Do you think we could see what we agree on, instead of disagreeing with each other. If we want to get somewhere other than arguing, we must change something.

Can we agree that:
Drugs are a problem.
Been illegal for over 50 years.
Law enforcement fighting it for over 50 years, with absolutely no effect on reducing drugs whatesoever.
More people than ever using.
More people in Jail for drugs than ever.
A sane person would deduce that it's not working, and that another 50 years of doing the same thing will not stop it either.
It's time to try something else.
If a person was sick or a car was not functioning properly, would it not be wise to try and find out what is causing the problem before treating or repairing, and/or before punishing the person or kicking the car.
We would be better off, putting our efforts towards finding out, why people are using.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:06 AM

Views: 26015

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

|
“Do you think we could see what we agree on, instead of disagreeing with each other. If we want to get somewhere other than arguing, we must change something. “

Yes, I agree that drugs are a problem. I agree that they’ve been illegal for over 50 years. I agree that Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years.

Let me give you another scenario…

Murder is a problem. It has been illegal for over 50 years. Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years. Should we legalize murder because the number of murders have gone up? I mean after all, the old methods we’ve been using have not reduced the amount of murders, right?

Your reasoning and deductions are silly given the scenario above.

It's time to try something else. YES, how about education? How about providing people with hope? How about losing the barriers that provide people with a sense of hopelessness? How about building self esteem through pride organizations geared to help potential victims of drug use? How about losing the holier than thou attitudes that make certain people (in ALL races) feel they have the ability to tell others how to live in their races. How about mutual acceptance and respect?

Do you suppose if people lost the fear and hopelessness, they might not have a need to use drugs? After all, as I keep saying, if one has a basically happy life, then why on earth would they feel a need to alter their minds or numb their feelings? One would assume that people such as this would want to enjoy all the leverage that full brain capacity and the wonderful feelings that accompany good mental health, don’t you suppose?

Question for you...why is it so important for you to convince me that you are right? I have no problem with you having a different opinion than mine, but obviously, we are not going to agree on this.

Another question...why is it important to Canadians to change Mexican laws about drugs? Shouldn't it be important to Canadians to change their own laws first?



keith

Nov 25, 2002, 8:11 AM

Views: 26026

    

fuel to the fire

|
bombadill

[Sat 23 Nov, 07:37]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) Soft to Hard - (16 replies)
Just read an article that smoking cannabis leads to harder drugs . I disagree and think it's down to the personality of the user

SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER

thaires

[Sat 23 Nov, 08:26]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 1. That
linkage was long ago refuted and I'm surprised that anyone's still trying to make the case. They used to call it the gateway drug.

The way people have made the case before was they go to a heroin user and ask if their first drug they tried was marijuana. The guy says yeah: linkage proven.

You could go to alcoholics and ask them if they used to drink milk as kids: You did? Milk leads to alcoholism!

There is absolutely nos cientific reason why marijuana would lead to any other drug. If it did, I would be a full on heroin addict by now -- yet I don't do ANY drugs -- including alcohol -- with the exception of an occasional puff.

That's been the case for the last 25 years.

CLBaggins

[Sat 23 Nov, 13:07]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 2. I sat out...
for some time as my friends got giggly because i truly feared smoking the joint would lead me to the hard stuff: TOBACCO!

But it didn't.

THE GREAT THING ABOUT FREE WILL IS IT ALLOWS A GUY WITH A DESTINY TO REALLY FUCK IT ALL UP. Camboman

[Sat 23 Nov, 13:21]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 3. Actually, smoking cannabis leads to...
the munchies. According to research.

Travel photographic galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/camboman/root peteywheatstraw

[Sat 23 Nov, 13:23]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 4. worse!
I heard that harder drugs lead to cannabis.

I dont really like traveling but its the only way I know of to get to where I want to be. keithr

[Sat 23 Nov, 15:47]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 5. no
It leads to levity. Can't have any of that. Gotta keep things serious. Act respectable!

http://home.attbi.com/~ramsay52/home.html Kiwi_Razz

[Sat 23 Nov, 20:10]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 6. more research
There was a report on the news the other day (in Australia, original report could have been from the UK) link marijuana and mental problems.

Now I do know a couple of people who have well and truly lost it, and they did smoke marijuana and take tabs of LSD or E regularly, but you could tell these people had the potential for mental problems even before they had them. I think it comes down to personality and genes more, than a cause and effect from drugs.


nell7

[Sat 23 Nov, 21:50]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 7. yeah, but
marijuana isn't magic pixie dust. You're kidding yourself if you think it has no ill effects.

CLBaggins

[Sat 23 Nov, 21:52]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 8. Once...
...when I was happily on my way to the drugstore for chocolate to treat a bad case of munchies, I looked down and there was a $5 bill on the ground. Naturally I picked it up, even knowing I was just imagining it because of my happy state of mind,and bought my chocolate with it, 'cause when I came down and it vanished, I wanted to be sure I had the change in my pocket.

It worked, too!

THE GREAT THING ABOUT FREE WILL IS IT ALLOWS A GUY WITH A DESTINY TO REALLY FUCK IT ALL UP. thaires

[Sat 23 Nov, 22:10]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 9. 7
I don't think either the thread or the responses to it have said anything about whether there are any ill effects. I don't think that's the point. Lots of things, particularly intoxicants, have ill effects. People feel the pleasure outweighs the detriment. Obviously, that's a subjective issue but ALL of the evidence, empirical and anecdotal, indicates it's a pretty fair trade off when it comes to marijuana. (Unlike, say, alcohol.)

Unless you know where I can get some magic pixie dust?

thaires

[Sat 23 Nov, 22:13]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 10. Should have
mentioned: I am in no way advocating any kind of "substance abuse", including the use of marijuana. I do object to people's straining to demonize it or mmake it somehow less "respectable" than alcohol which is not merely condoned but celebrated -- despite the fact that alcohol causes FAR more damage to both individual lives and society as a whole.

JasonDogget

[Sat 23 Nov, 22:40]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 11. Pot beats the bottle
I have been smoking pot for 35 years. During that time I ran a successful engineering firm, wrote papers for professional publications, two books, and was on a college faculty. Some of my friends and colleagues who drank and didn’t smoke didn’t do so well at home or at work. Using neither may be best for one’s health in the long run, but if abstinence is not your thing, pot beats the bottle.

bombadill

[Sun 24 Nov, 01:45]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 12. Just the point
I was trying to make is answered by 11 ,I have smoked for over 30 years and although i have dabbled with amphetamines lsd and e i always worked on the basis that anything in moderation was alright i came of the last 3 substances with know problems what so ever and have just recently gave up the puff not because i was getting parnoid or any other disorder i just decided to give up smoking completely i have not had any urge to go back to either as i feel i have enough will to do what i want. All the time i was on drugs i was still able to go to college for 6 years progress in my carrier to supervisor status raise a son who has a 1st class attitude travell to many places have a good standard of living etc it really is down to the person is my veiw

SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER

thaires

[Sun 24 Nov, 02:08]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 13. In the interest
of full disclosure and accuracy (not that anyone cares): I miststated my history in my 1st post; I meant to say that I have had an occasional puff for the last 25 years and that I CURRENTLY do no other drugs. I have done other drugs in the past (though even those occasions followed my first canabis use by several years and were vouluntary experimentation -- not some kind of compulsion caused by the canabis.)

Jeffro

[Sun 24 Nov, 03:25]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 14. Highly recommended
Street Drugs, By Andrew Tyler, the facts explained, the myths exploded. The drug workers bible, apparently.
ISBN 0-340-60975-3

tropicalbreeze

[Sun 24 Nov, 20:09]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 15. ...
Anyone who says that marijuana leads to use of hard drugs is just trying to justify the prohibition of marijuana. There is no real reason why marijuana should be illegal, but I guess that could be the subject of another thread!

A new stereophonic sound spectacular nell7

[Sun 24 Nov, 21:17]
PST (Gumly Gumly -17) 16. I want to clarify
I have smoked pot in the past and don't have a problem with it as an occasional drug. But sometimes I think there is such a huge backlash against those who would like to restrict it, that we go into this glory song about how pot can do no harm. I have known some who were lovely potsmokers but horrible drinkers and vice versa. Some people do not suit pot, and it is terribly easy to fall into bad habits with pot. I must say now I am going through a period of not smoking it, I am surprised at how much better my life is. I used to think I'd hate it, but I actually like the even keel.
Basically, marijuana is a drug, and drugs are unnecessary froo fra that we introduce into our brains. I have never met anyone who was a better person because they smoked pot. Not saying shouldn't do it, just don't lets over-praise it.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:20 AM

Views: 26013

    

Re: [CanMex] You are American

|
“Do you think we could see what we agree on, instead of disagreeing with each other. If we want to get somewhere other than arguing, we must change something. “

Yes, I agree that drugs are a problem. I agree that they’ve been illegal for over 50 years. I agree that Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years.

Let me give you another scenario…

Murder is a problem. It has been illegal for over 50 years. Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years. Should we legalize murder because the number of murders have gone up? I mean after all, the old methods we’ve been using have not reduced the amount of murders, right?

Your reasoning and deductions are silly given the scenario above.

It's time to try something else. YES, how about education? How about providing people with hope? How about losing the barriers that provide people with a sense of hopelessness? How about building self esteem through pride organizations geared to help potential victims of drug use? How about losing the holier than thou attitudes that make certain people (in ALL races) feel they have the ability to tell others how to live in their races. How about mutual acceptance and respect?

Do you suppose if people lost the fear and hopelessness, they might not have a need to use drugs? After all, as I keep saying, if one has a basically happy life, then why on earth would they feel a need to alter their minds or numb their feelings? One would assume that people such as this would want to enjoy all the leverage that full brain capacity and the wonderful feelings that accompany good mental health, don’t you suppose?

Now, why do Canadians want marijuana legalized so badly in Mexico? Nobody seems to answer this. I can understand if you like marijuana, that you would want it legal in your OWN country, but why force your likes and dislikes on other countries?



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:24 AM

Views: 26010

    

Re: [keith] fuel to the fire

|
Never said that smoking pot leads to harder drugs. Some do go on to other drugs, some don't. But smoking pot definitely leads to laziness and memory loss. And if the person doesn't age out of the habit, they tend to wake up and need a joint and continue through the day with that pattern.

The sad thing is, marijuana smokers are usually living in denial like tobacco smokers. They rarely see themselves deteriorate and would vehemently deny that their choices change. Funny though, everyone around them tends to notice. Why is that?



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:32 AM

Views: 26007

    

Re: [keith] fuel to the fire

|
I like the phrase, "I have never met anyone who was a better person because they smoked pot."

Please explain to me how pot enhances one's life? Please explain how it benefits society. Please explain how a person who it otherwise healthy in mind and body would need pot?

How does smoking pot help one's lungs? How does smoking pot help one's mental state? How does smoking pot benefit one financially? How does smoking pot help raise children? How does smoking pot help in any way that would merit the need to force it on Mexican people that clearly don't want it?

This is why I feel drugs are social genocide. People often try to force them onto countries or communities that are not equipped to treat the ill effects. People within these areas have enough problems so why add one more, unless....



keith

Nov 25, 2002, 8:39 AM

Views: 25860

    

related readings

|
rough translations from the Spanish text my wife uses:



The New Economy

Illegal Agriculture



Planting marijuana didn’t become common in Urique until about 1987. The reasons why more and more men resort to this activity are various and different in each case. The main reason is lack of employment in that only 5% of the population is employed, that is to say that they do work for which they receive a salary. Another small part of the population subsists by self-employment. This is the case with the owners of stores, hotels, and restaurants, those that haul merchandise, and small-scale miners. Those who work in construction find only seasonal work. But that leaves all the adults and youngsters, men and women, amounting to hundred in the town alone, thousands in the county, who can’t work because there aren’t many jobs.



The Sierra Tarahumara is not the only place with this problem, but in this region it is particularly extreme because of the scarcity of tillable land or pasture for cattle. The Mexican economy, although it progresses little by little, is presently in a seriously bad condition. Another factor that enters into the game: our neighbors to the north are willing to pay large amounts of money for the drugs they desire. For this reason, this type of agriculture is sometimes the only alternative. Many of the marijuana planters don’t have the land to plant grains or vegetables.



Another factor that contributes to this problem is that the areas adjacent to this county—the state of Sinaloa, the area around Batopilas, and other areas to the southwest of Urique—have been in this situation for a long time and on a large scale, and it is already part of the lives of their people, and those people have an influence on the lives of the people from around here.



Why does the government allow the cultivation of this herb? It is a hard question to answer for various reasons. It’s not hard to see the obvious ones. If the government tried to impede the illegal agriculture, the economic problems would be so serious there would be repercussions of various kinds. There would be practically no money circulating in the county; it would create sociological problems such as crimes of robbery and other delinquencies, and health problems such as malnutrition. These things already exist, but they could increase dramatically to the point of chaos.



It is an unfathomable problem, impossible to discuss in a public forum. Nevertheless it can’t be left out of a description of the canyon towns in that it forms an intrinsic part of the people’s lives.



El Chutamero (The Pot Farmer) and the Cuerno (AK-47)



“Chutamero” is the name given to those who plant marijuana (just like one kind of sandal is called chutamero because they say the pot farmers wear them), and one of them told me this story.



The chutamero in this story is like any of the others. He has a family, responsibilities, and sometimes he tries to support them in whatever legal way is possible. But when it’s planting time, he leaves his house heading for places away from the well-known pathways taking a blanket for sleeping, something to eat, his tape player, and his “cuerno”. “Cuerno” is the name they’ve given to the semi-automatic rifles, like the AK-47, that many chutameros carry in case someone comes around their plantings with the intention of stealing them.



This farmer had two partners; this business depends on teamwork. For several years he had managed to bring in a harvest, but with different partners. In the year that preceded this story, he and his partners had taken turns looking after the crop, going to the nearby town to buy food and beer, and staying to sleep near the crop when the plants were big. But on this occasion all three happened to be there.



Another risk for the chutamero is the Mexican army, which mobilizes both on land and by air during the time when harvesting is most likely. And this is the problem that the chutamero had to face that day.



One of the partners had just left camp to go to buy something to eat and drink. He had only walked about 40 minutes when he saw something that immobilized him with fear. A group of soldiers was nearing, perhaps not going in his direction, but not very far from it either. His immediate reaction was to run until finding a niche in the rocks where he could hide. Once he found a hiding place, he realized he would not be able to leave it because the soldiers had come too near where he was hiding. His heart was racing, the sweat ran off his face, and he had his eyes full of the salty liquid. He had almost forgotten to breathe, but the exertion had forced his lungs to gasp air. What he should do was run to warn his partners; but how could he go without giving himself away? Another thought made him forget about his companions and think more about his own safety: the soldiers often had police dogs trained to find people as well as drugs. If he passed close by them they would find him without any trouble.



Luckily they didn’t have a dog. They passed by about 6 meters from him, and he could see that they were walking in the direction of the camp. He spent almost two hours there because he couldn’t figure out what to do. The soldiers took about 65 minutes to cover ground that had taken him about 40 minutes. The soldiers weren’t from around there.



But soon the soldiers arrived at a point where the other two chutameros could see them, and they suffered the same panic that the hidden one had suffered. One of them took off franticly running up the hillside away from where the soldiers were coming, but he had to stop when he remembered his only way out was down canyon walls about 200 meters deep. What else could he do? He threw himself over the edge, trying to hold onto rocks and plants, some of them spiny, and soon his hands and arms were bloody. Soon he started rolling downhill, and rolling into rocks he lost consciousness (was knocked out).



The third chutamero, the one who told me this story, had seen his friend run and disappear into the depths while he was running in the same direction, but he had stopped for a minute in his flight. He had thought about the cuerno. If they caught him with that rifle his prison term would be much longer, but in that instant he only thought about the need to hide himself.



But stopping, returning to get the cuerno, and the moment of doubt that made him think of the possibility of losing his life if he fell into the canyon, these also made him lose some important seconds. Now he didn’t have time to run in that direction and he could only make way in the only direction that the squadron of soldiers couldn’t see him from where they were coming. He found himself in some enormous boulders that he couldn’t climb out of without giving himself away. Nor could he go around them without losing precious time. His only alternative was to fall on his face and get however he could into a tight place under a big rock where there was probably a snake or a scorpion. He was just barely able to pull his legs, arm, and the rifle in far enough to be out of sight. When he managed that he realized that he wasn’t far enough away from camp but that the soldiers would hear him if he didn’t stop breathing so loudly. But when your life is in danger, your body can even stop breathing if it is necessary.



He barely had a minute or two to get his breathing under control when he could clearly hear the soldiers’ voices. Now everything was in the hands of fate. If they had a dog he was lost. The next few minutes seemed to him an eternity. He heard the shouts of the soldiers who ran in the logical escape direction, and the orders of the sergeant telling some to search toward the canyon and others to search back in the direction from which they had come. The only reason why they probably didn’t look for him under his rock was because he was so close to the camp that no one imagined that someone could be right there, a few steps away.



After breaking whatever they found and destroying the sleeping bags, the soldiers proceeded to cut and pile up the plants. This took them more than an hour. Then came the fire. They wanted to finish rapidly, because the heat at this time of day was insupportable, and it was increased by the fire and the lack of shade trees.



It seemed to the chutamero that he was there forever. He heard the sergeant say they were only going to go some 300 meters downhill and camp there to eat and to search from around there to see if there weren’t other plantings higher up. At that time his legs were stiff and he was very thirsty.



He had no alternative but to stay where he was, face down, stiff, thirsty, hungry, living the most terrifying experience of his life during the rest of the day and night. He wondered if his friend who had rolled (fallen) into the canyon was still living. He was pretty sure that the one who had left camp was all right because he never heard the soldiers talk about him. During the night he had crawled out in the dark to find a place in the ground among the rocks to bury the cuerno, and when it started to get light he hid himself again in the same crevice under the rock. When he finally decided that the danger had passed he had been among those rocks for about 40 hours.



When he arrived in town the next night he was aching and starving, and he only found (could only find) the lucky partner, and they both assumed that the third one was dead in the canyon he had fallen into, and they planned to go looking for his body the next day. But that night at the house arrived a shadow bleeding from various places wearing clothes in tatters, with its face stained with a mixture of sweat, blood, tears, and dirt, but with a small satisfied smile because it was alive.



The Cow



I’ve heard several versions of this story, but they are all similar. It’s possible I may have missed some things or that I may have inadvertently changed some detail, but the main events will not have been altered.



It started the day that one of the cows belonging to a man from a town upriver didn’t show up at nightfall. The man thought that maybe in the morning he’d find her, like other times, stuck in some rocks near the arroyo. But it didn’t work out that way. The next day passed, and the cow didn’t appear, and at the end of the second day with no cow he began making conjectures. He had already been afraid that those damn kids that used drugs and planted marijuana would come around and rob something from him, being as how they didn’t have anything better to do. He decided to go to Urique to report the theft.



The next morning he got his burro and his gourd for carrying water ready; he threw some peaches on the burro; well, since he was going to Urique, he could sell some, and he had his wife prepare him some tacos. His purpose was to report the theft to the police and, in passing, to buy some groceries. The trail to Urique took four hours of unending downhill on trails where the rocks rolled under his feet like loose marbles, but the men from this land know how to step, and the burros have done it for centuries. He arrived early, he stopped at some Americans’ house to sell the peaches, and, since they bought them all, he didn’t have to stop anywhere else. He went straight to the police station and talked with the chief. The chief communicated the information to the sergeant of the military detachment that was camped on the beach by the river.



The next day twelve soldiers appeared in the town of N . . . and they went in the direction the old man had pointed out. For sure over there they were still eating the rest of his cow. It took them several hours to find a camp where there were some six chutameros who were so surprised that at first they didn’t even move. But one did and out of fear fired his pistol. And right there the big commotion started.



With that shot the soldiers and chutameros alike ran for cover; other shots were fired, perhaps by the soldiers; and some of the chutameros took off running. About eight soldiers chased them, and the others stayed to catch the ones that hadn’t moved. No one knew exactly who had fired, nor how many planters there were, but the big commotion had started. The soldiers returned with two prisoners, and they hadn’t been able to catch the others. Eight soldiers stayed to make camp in that place while the rest took the prisoners back, and returned with another detachment to check the whole area. The next afternoon three trucks with soldiers arrived (in Urique) and not being able to go up the trail, the trucks and four guards stayed down below while the (rest of the) soldiers rushed to the place where the action was.



The next two days were agitated. The soldiers searched houses; they questioned all the men in the place; they moved around in squads on all the surrounding peaks; they put the women to making food; they sent out for more provisions; and three members of the Urique police force also arrived. The people from that place lived some tense days because the representatives of law and order looked at them with suspicion.



And that was the way things were in the little town that had suddenly tripled its normal population in a paroxysm no one ever dreamed possible, when, that afternoon, the lost cow, completely carefree, wandered home.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:55 AM

Views: 25858

    

Re: [keith] related readings

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Some facts about Marijuana use:

The effects of marijuana can be categorized into three types; the physiological effects, psychological effects, and the subjective effects. Some of the physiological effects are reddened eyes, increased pulse rate, and a dry mouth (cotton-mouth). The THC in marijuana is believed to change a psychoactive compound in the liver, which may be the cause of the psychological and subjective effects. The psychological effects of marijuana are most often seen in altered perceptions of distance and time, impaired memory and physical coordination, and a heightened sensitivity of the visual and auditory senses. The subjective effects refer to those effects that are going to change from person to person. Euphoria, lowered inhibitions, drowsiness, contentment, and relaxation are generally the desired effects of people who use marijuana. The euphoric feeling generally peaks in 10 - 30 minutes, and may last for up to three hours. People may experience adverse effects from marijuana use such as anxiety and paranoia. The anxiety can range anywhere from mild anxiety to complete panic.

Marijuana, as with all drugs, does have its own pros and cons but, outside the realm of medicine, the cons heavily outweigh the pros. First and foremost, marijuana use or possession is illegal in the United States regardless of amount, and while there are groups who are lobbying to make marijuana legal in the US, they have been unsuccessful. Other consequences of marijuana use are the effects of long term use on the individual's health.

Marijuana contains more cancer producing elements than tobacco cigarettes, may produce a mild physical dependence that causes minor withdrawal symptoms when discontinued, and is potentially harmful to pregnant women. Furthermore, being "high" produces driving hazards through slowed reactions times and decreased spatial judgment abilities. Chronic heavy use may lead to lasting behavioral problems such as loss of motivation and paranoia, and physical problems such as impairment of lung function, and weight gain due to the appetite enhancing effects associated with marijuana use.

However, the adverse health effects are also a very good reason why marijuana should not be legalized. Some of the adverse medical effects are: loss of memory; sleepiness; anxiety; paranoia; breathing problems; increased appetite; addictive; smoke may be more dangerous than smoke from cigarettes; and etc.
Findings so far show that regular use of marijuana or THC may play a role in some kinds of cancer and in problems with the respiratory, and immune systems.
&#61623; Cancer
It's hard to know for sure whether regular marijuana use causes cancer. But it is known that marijuana contains some of the same, and sometimes even more, of the cancer-causing chemicals found in tobacco smoke. Studies show that someone who smokes five joints per day may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day
&#61623; Lungs and airways
People who smoke marijuana often develop the same kinds of breathing problems that cigarette smokers have: coughing and wheezing. They tend to have more chest colds than nonusers. They are also at greater risk of getting lung infections like pneumonia.
&#61623; Immune system
Animal studies have found that THC can damage the cells and tissues in the body that help protect people from disease. When the immune cells are weakened, you are more likely to get sick.


"We know that a substantial number of chronic marijuana users become addicted, and previous research with animals has shown that stopping heavy marijuana use suddenly can cause distinct withdrawal symptoms," said Dr. Alan I. Leshner, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health, which supported this research. "This study shows that marijuana use shares common brain changes and mechanisms with other drugs of abuse."

This study was conducted by scientists in the United States and Spain to discover whether CRF (corticotropin-releasing factor), a brain chemical which increases during emotional times and periods of stress, plays a role in dependence on cannabis, the plant from which marijuana and hashish are derived. Earlier studies have suggested that CRF plays a role in the neurobiological and behavioral effects of withdrawal from addiction to cocaine, alcohol, and opiates, and possibly a role in drug dependence in general.
Rats were injected with HU-210, a potent substance that mimics the effects of marijuana. An analysis of the rats' brains showed that one injection of HU-210 reduced the release of CRF in the amygdala, a key brain structure involved in emotions.
After 14 days of HU-210 treatment, the researchers induced drug withdrawal by injecting rats with the antagonist SR 141716A, a substance that blocks many effects of marijuana. The marijuana-treated rats showed many withdrawal symptoms after marijuana antagonist injection. Moreover, these rats showed an increased release of CRF at the same time they demonstrated dramatic behavioral withdrawal symptoms. Importantly, the specific brain areas that were activated during cannabinoid withdrawal are quite active during withdrawal from other drugs of abuse and play a key role in stress responses in general.

"These results provide evidence that long-term exposure to cannabinoids leads to changes in the brain that activate stress-like responses during cannabinoid withdrawal," said Dr. Friedbert Weiss, one of the study's investigators at the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, CA. "These changes in CRF functioning in the brain are similar to those seen during withdrawal from alcohol, cocaine, and opiates, as well as during exposure to environmental stressors," he added.

Dr. George Koob, also from Scripps Research Institute, observed that "the finding from this and other studies that long-term exposure to cannabinoids can produce changes in the brain that resemble those associated with other major drugs of abuse suggests that addiction to one drug may make a person more vulnerable to abuse and addiction to other drugs. Cannabinoid abuse, by activating CRF mechanisms, may lead to a subtle disruption of brain processes that are then ‘primed' for further and easier disruption by other drugs of abuse."
The study was supported in the United States by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the National Institute of Diabetes, Digestive and Kidney Diseases, both parts of the National Institutes of Health, and in Spain, by the Comisión Interministerial de Ciencia y Tecnología, and Comunidad Autónoma de Madrid.


1)Studies in India, Europe and the U.S. have found that while under the influence of cannabis, short-term memory loss is not uncommon.
2)Chronic users may find it difficult to adapt to new rules & situations
3)Withdrawl symptoms from chronic use may include nervousness, tension, restlessness, sleep disturbance and appetite changes.
4)Heavy use may lead to respitory problems that pack-a-day cigarette smokers can get including bronchitis, and exacerbation of athma.
5)Given a cigarette of comparable weight, as much as four times the amount of tar can be deposited into the lungs of marijuana smokers as in the lungs of tobacco smokers. However, a joint is typically not packed as tight as a ciggarette and the smokable substance is about half that in a ciggarette. In addition, tobacco smokers generally smoke considerably more ciggarettes per day then marijuana smokers do.

These are the reasons I do not think legalization would benefit the Mexican society....or any other society for that matter.



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 9:45 AM

Views: 25850

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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Marisol,

I now realize that you have a very big chip on your shoulder sitting on the tip of a needle.

You remind me of the joke about the guy, who would not go out because he felt everybody was looking at him and talking about him, his friend finally talk him into going to the footbal game, at the game when the football players huddlled before the play, the guy jumped up see they are talking about me.

"I will respond to both you and CanMex here. Drugs are illegal in Mexico. Yes, kids sniff paint fumes. Yes, kids do any number of things to get high in lieu of drugs. Kids also shoot up heroine. They also car surf. Sometimes they drive too fast and race on public highways. As a matter of fact, there are kids that participate in MTV's Jackass show and others who think it's "cool" to push the envelope. Some of these kids grow up and never get injured. Others end up as quadreplegics or with severe injuries. The moral of this story is teenagers are still growing and developing and defining their personalities. Social psychologists will cite you the stages of development and explain to you that teenagers are in a stage of development just before adulthood, where they are defining themselves and experimenting with new roles."

Firstly, I never heard of anyone advocating selling Marijuana to minors. Secondly, don't you think it would be more important to try and figure out why these kids act like they do and what to do about it. More and more studies show, that these are symptoms of not having anyone to open to, not enough quality time with their parents, a feeling of not being loved etc... and you forgot to mention suicide, more and more are comitting suicide for the same reason.

"People that smoke pot at parties while young, for the most part mature out of it. Many of the foolish things we do in our youth, we age out of. Even gang members age out of it, so I don't tend to hold people's poor decision making against them. I believe you may age out of your current views on drugs as well, because you seem like a very intelligent man."

OK we can agree on this one.

"This arrogant attitude that both of you have that you know what is best for the world pisses me off at times. It is PRECISELY the privilege that I've been discussing, and it is only more sickening when it is accompanied with the wholesale denial of privilege...albeit it is the latest version of political correctness among many Whites today. The other one, is to call the minority angry or unhappy, or imply that when they defend their right to equality, they are somehow militant. Some approach it by telling people like me that I need to "smile" more, implying that somehow my belief in myself implies that I lead a very unhappy life. Very few like you tend to see how militant you are in trying to ram YOUR opinions on what minorities should do or act like as militant or even at the best, EXTREMELY SELF-SERVING and RUDE. "

Again the chip, it borders on prejudice, we ram ideas but you what?

"I surmise nothing I say here will change that because both of you are in denial about even having the right to tell me how I should approach living in my own culture. CanMex dances around dialogue by saying he simply is "telling me" that I should approach my Latin roots like this....however I should treat others with respect." He doesn't get that he doesn't have the right to "tell me" anymore than I have the right to TELL HIM how to approach being Canadian. He keeps missing the point! "

You either miss the point as well, or is it you just don't want to see it?

"As far as the marijuana debate....and Mexico...I'm not nearly egotistical enough to feel that my views on this are the last word for the Mexican people! As far as the marijuana debate for MY country? I feel that legalizing pot would be a disaster for the reasons I have stated. Does this mean I go out into life in some evangelical attempt to stop all pot smoking? No. As a matter of fact I have friends in Playas that smoke pot and while I won't allow it at my house, I don't preach to them. They are adults and have made their decisions and the decisions they make will or will not affect their lives. One young man I know here though, seems like he has difficulty these days without a joint and just had a baby, so I have my opinions on that, but unless he asks, I don't get involved. I certainly don't hate him for his poor decision making."

Bravo, by the way I do not smoke anything myself, I do not drink alcohol bevs. either and I do not permit anyone to smoke even tobacco in my house, because it is my right not to smoke second hand smoke and the smell stays for ever.



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 10:37 AM

Views: 25849

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

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Marisol,

Glad to see we agree on something.

"Murder is a problem. It has been illegal for over 50 years. Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years. Should we legalize murder because the number of murders have gone up? I mean after all, the old methods we’ve been using have not reduced the amount of murders, right? "

Also glad you brought that one up, most countries, have for a long time figured out that the death penalty, was not a deterrent, and changed the law. They all have lower murder rates than the US, where you have States that still lower themselves, to killing people, for what? To feel good about it, for revenge, for politics?

"It's time to try something else. YES, how about education? How about providing people with hope? How about losing the barriers that provide people with a sense of hopelessness? How about building self esteem through pride organizations geared to help potential victims of drug use? How about losing the holier than thou attitudes that make certain people (in ALL races) feel they have the ability to tell others how to live in their races. How about mutual acceptance and respect?

Do you suppose if people lost the fear and hopelessness, they might not have a need to use drugs? After all, as I keep saying, if one has a basically happy life, then why on earth would they feel a need to alter their minds or numb their feelings? One would assume that people such as this would want to enjoy all the leverage that full brain capacity and the wonderful feelings that accompany good mental health, don’t you suppose?"

Right on, I agree and I think you should add the reasons, I have enumerated in my previous post.

"Question for you...why is it so important for you to convince me that you are right? I have no problem with you having a different opinion than mine, but obviously, we are not going to agree on this."

What I was trying to convince you of, was exactly the conclusion you came to, that the problem was more basic, deeper than keeping Marijuana illegal, which is not even a bandaid on the problem. I still believe that legalizing would still be a good help and would create funds for instituting programs etc...

"Another question...why is it important to Canadians to change Mexican laws about drugs? Shouldn't it be important to Canadians to change their own laws first? "

Again taking things out of context, and spinning. I have never mentionned changing Mexican law, a lot less trying to change it. Can we not discuss subjects without being accused to try and change laws, can't I have my opinion also?

I know of a farmer who will sell an animal, every once in while, behind his wifes back and then runs and gets drunk until he runs out of money, leaving her to take care of the farm. I am sure she would rather he had a couple of Marijuana plants behind the barn, and puff every so often.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 11:02 AM

Views: 25840

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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CanMex,

Honestly, I tend to think you are very phony. You come across with this, sickening sweet niceness laced with barbery jagged remarks consistently. Then, you are surprised when a person reacts to you with the same effect.

What's wrong, my dear? Are you a little baffled that this Latin babe doesn't buy all your b.s.? Or does it really cross your wires that you can't force someone to say what you want them to say? Because you keep going over the same b.s. trying to get me to say something that I don't believe. Honey, get this clear! I'm not going to say anything that I don't feel just so you can feel some air of superiority. That's not in my psychological makeup. In turn, I won't demand that YOU say anything YOU don't believe in either. That's called respect.

You seem to have control freak issues and while that may work on some of the Latinos and Latinas you've come in contact with, you may find that many of us simply find it vulgar, albeit somewhat predictable but still extremely vulgar.

Please stop whining about how a woman that is posting to two clearly biased men of another culture is picking on you. I would say the gang bang effect would more likely have me crying foul than you, but I can hold my own and I surmise this is precisely what pisses you off about me.

Honestly, I have yet to find anything you say either new, challenging, or even slightly interesting as it's the same old b.s. I've been hearing for years with the same old sugar coating to mask the meaning. And THAT my dear, is what REALLY has you upset with me and we both know it!

So let's stop jousting over marijuana and other phony issues and why don't you simply come out and say what you really want to...please? The fact is, you don't like the fact that I don't entitle you to the right to tell me what to do or how to do it, because for some reason, in that simple mind or yours, you feel you have this entitlement. It's called privilege and I'm not allowing it to happen with me. That is what Latino pride is all about and that is why so many hate the idea of Latino pride! Because no sane person would have issue with anyone feeling positive about themself if they weren't trying to exercise some form of control. Spare me!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 11:14 AM

Views: 25841

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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My dear CanMex,

We are writing in a forum about Mexico. Did that miss You? So why wouldn't I assume that you want to change the laws of Mexico, with regards to legalization of pot? Otherwise, why would you be writing about marijuana legalization HERE?

Are you here to discuss Mexico and Latin culture, or simply to argue about issues in general?

As far as the death penalty...have you lost focus on who you are talking to? MY HUSBAND USED TO BE IN A GANG! Do you actually believe that I endorse the death penalty when I feel people have the capacity to change???? Ish Maria!

And as much as you would like to take credit for my post listing the root causes for drug abuse, you may feel a little silly when you realize that I posted this when I first responded to this post...and you claim you've read all the posts! Babydoll, you have issues! If you want to smoke pot until the cows come home, by all means do it! If you want to have privilege by all means, if they allow you that option take it! But all I've said OVER AND OVER is it won't happen with me and I can name a long list of other people it wouldn't happen with, both Mexican and Chicano.

If you even choose to live in denial about things you vaccilate back and forth on, that's your right! But I find it odd that you enter a site about Mexico and insist on speaking about other locations that have nothing to do with Mexico.



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 11:22 AM

Views: 25831

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] related readings

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Marisol,

Reference your post # 102, I agree that Marijuana is damageable to health and mildly addictive. Colas are also damageable to health and mildly addictive, a heavy user, will have withdrawal symptoms, such as headaches and drowsyness etc.. if he/she quits cold turkey.

I believe they should make Cola illegal for minors or at least to younger than 14 years old. Do you realize that a Cola holds something like 3/4 of a cup of sugar and more cafein than coffee. And a Cola for a 3or 4 years old kid, would compare to 6 or 7 Colas to a grown up.

In the Ejido where I live when in Mexico, the Pastor in his sermon, was saying, it's pretty bad when a kid learns to say Coca before learning Papa and Mama.I have seen many kids, just old enough to walk. with a coke in one arm and a pack of cookies or pastry in the other, and that can be early in the morning the day is not over yet.

Now don't jump on me for bringing down Mexicans, because this happens, all over the world.



scott

Nov 25, 2002, 11:30 AM

Views: 25831

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

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How does smoking pot help one's lungs? How does smoking pot help one's mental state? How does smoking pot benefit one financially? How does smoking pot help raise children? How does smoking pot help in any way that would merit the need to force it on Mexican people that clearly don't want it?

First of all, I have no idea where you got the idea we are trying to force it on the Mexican people. But seeing as you brought it up, sure, Mexicans should have the same right to smoke as Canadians should.

How does going to a violent gangster movie help society? How does it help a person to actually pay a lot of money to go see people get shot and killed and see endless violent crime? Over time, how does affect their mental state, and thought patterns?

I would rather see violent minorites banned from being portrayed in Hollywood movies, than have certain drugs classified as illegal. I think movies and tv are far worse than drugs.

Sure, Latinos might join gangs based on need to survive, etc, etc.. But the stuff in tv highly influences otherwise decent white people, and the kids grow up thinking its cool to be a crack head african american in the ghetto. This portrayal in the media of ghetto life, is far worse than the drugs themselves. Why? Because apparently ghetto life is violent. And these kids grow up being what is refered to as a "white nigger".

Drugs themselves are not violent. They just have violent distribution in your poor latino barrios. I think that now, you are trying to claim to know all about white suburban life. Having grown up in your poor and violent latino barrio, what makes you an expert on small town culture and life? Just because you and your people are violent, referring to Latinos in American barrios, that does not mean drug distribution is violent everywhere.

In South-Western Ontario, I assure you that you can buy Marijuana from any number of non-gang associated people. People grow it in the corn field out behind their house. They grow a few plants in their backyard. For personal use, and a few friends. You do not have to be associated with any shady people, in any sense of the word, to get your hands on Marijuana.

Some white guys grow in out in the mountains of BC. When I was camping out in the mountains, in the middle of no where, we ran into a guy doing this. He was very nice, etc, not your typical gangster. Drug distribution does not have to be like in your ethnic barrios. These people then ship their weed Canada Post or drive it out across the country. And then white college kids might distribute it. Its not a big deal, and no one is going to kill you or hurt you.

Perhaps white people just don't have that same tendancy towards violence, that others do. In Ontario, The Outlaws motorcycle gang were big distributors . I assure you, having had Outlaws clubhouses in my city, etc, I have zero fear in my day to day life of running into an Outlaw and having him hurt me. One of their clubhouses was down the street from my friends house. There is no fear in day to day life. Its not like if I wandered into the wrong ethnic barrio some big American city. Its totally different.

The point of this marijuana rant is two fold. First, that marijuana is not bad. And second, what you see in the ghetto is just your experience. America is a very large country, and Canada too, and what you see in the inner city is not the same as elsewhere.

I researched LSD fully before trying it, and concluded it was not bad. I tried it about 4 times, around the time the Matrix was new in theatres (quite an experience). So, I haven't touched it in 2 or 3 years, and you will not convince me it is bad. It harmed me myself in no way, in fact I think it helped me grow, and therefore no one has the right to deny me of that.

The rights of an individual are greater than the rights of latino society at large. By the way, I would never ever touch any illegal drugs in Mexico. Just to make that clear. I am way too scared of the Mexican prison system, it would eat me alive.



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 11:46 AM

Views: 25829

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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Marisol,

I will not address the last issues you brought up, because it is beginning to feel like dancing or playing violin.

"As far as the death penalty...have you lost focus on who you are talking to? MY HUSBAND USED TO BE IN A GANG! Do you actually believe that I endorse the death penalty when I feel people have the capacity to change???? Ish Maria!"

Explain to me, why you would not have as much compassion for a poor guy, who doesn't hurt anybody, who's only crime is puffing every once in a while, on a cigarette containing Marijuana instead of tobacco, which millions of persons do every day.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 12:11 PM

Views: 25823

    

Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

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CanMex,

I don’t have the desire to emotionally baby-sit a middle-aged man that chooses to post in a passive-aggressive manner. Especially a man who says one minute that I’m “intelligent and caring” and the next claims “I’ve got a major chip on my shoulder,” because he can’t get me to say I believe something that I don’t believe in. I’ve tried to be respectful to you. Even in the posts where I discuss White privilege (in spite of the fact that I’m HALF WHITE and freely admit there IS such a thing) I have tried to get my point across in as respectful of a manner as I could. In return, I get a temper tantrum from you with every post, that reminds me of someone that desperately needs to get in line for his valium therapy and happy meal from Nurse Ratchett.

First you tell me you can’t figure me out, then you try to analyze me. Are you confused? My dear, maybe you’ve only been exposed to common, ordinary people that don’t stray from the mold. But believe me, there are many people out there that don’t fit into your little precise definitions of how humans should behave according to CanMex. Some of us even have gone through a high degree of introspection and have developed our philosophical outlook for some very strange reasons. For instance, being from two different cultures I may have had some pretty interesting experiences that allowed me to experience the mindset of both the Latino culture AND the White American culture which provided me with some interesting conclusions. Indeed, CanMex, if you and your lovely bride to be have children, you may find that this is precisely what happens and I think you may end up being surprised at some of the discoveries your child may make.

In your mind, you interpret all of this as I hate Whites, which is so far from true it’s hilarious. I LOVE the White side of my family and value them. It’s one of the reasons I’m not opposed to White Pride organizations that teach young White kids to value themselves and demand respect as long as they don’t devalue other cultures. As a matter of fact, I think it’s WONDERFUL that my son has spent so much time researching his father’s Irish background. He is proud of every bit of his family heritage, including his father’s White ancestry and I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time helping him research his roots and creating a family tree for his children some day, which includes his father’s Irish side.

Here’s a kid that not only speaks Spanish and English, but is working to learn Gaelic. He doesn’t do drugs, although he admitted to me that he has tried certain drugs with his friends, and he is opening his own graphic arts business because he had enough self-confidence to direct himself towards his goals. He knows a couple of my old friends that are potheads and he tends to joke about them, but he feels badly that they have lives that are basically going nowhere because he sees the effects of daily prolonged use.

I’m tired of being polite to you when you come across as stuck on stupid and keep oscillating back and forth on how much you love Latinos one moment and then explain that we blame Whites for all our problems the next. The truth is, I don’t blame you for my problems. Why? Because I was fortunate enough to develop the capability to not allow you to have any impact on my existence, when I felt it wasn’t in my best interests. I know also that my mother’s family certainly didn’t cause me any problems and they were extremely loving. They were White. I have many White friends that didn’t cause any significant distress in my life, so I can’t blame them. Nope. Any problems I have can only be blamed on myself if I allow others to control my views or life and I don’t do that.

Do they try? Yup! Do they succeed? Hell no! Why? It all comes back to the recognition that there are morons out there that have a need to control others for any number of reasons, including privilege and the fact that my family-both White and Latino, instilled pride in me for all the various parts that make me up. So honestly, when people like you come along, it’s very frustrating for them, as you’ve demonstrated, for them to have any impact on my thinking. AND THAT TENDS TO PISS OFF THE CONTROL FREAKS!

Now, since we clearly have a lack of respect for one another and out of courtesy to the other folks here, I will be the adult in this situation and stop the posting wars with you. I will continue posting to Scott, because clearly, while we disagree, I have evidence through a private message that he sent me that he really does have reason to care about the Latino culture. I feel he is sincere and I have remarkable respect for the fact that he stands by his convictions, even if we disagree. I'm sure you will whine and cry about how unfair this is or post some other silly little reference but honestly, you are boring me with the same stuff over and over.

Marisol



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 12:12 PM

Views: 25818

    

Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

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Scott,

I have work to do so I'll respond to you later. You bring up some good points and I'd love to answer these points as well.

Have a wonderful afternoon!

Marisol



CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 2:09 PM

Views: 25809

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

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Marisol,

Ref: #105

"Please stop whining about how a woman that is posting to two clearly biased men of another culture is picking on you. I would say the gang bang effect would more likely have me crying foul than you, but I can hold my own and I surmise this is precisely what pisses you off about me."

As far as I am concerned, I am open to anyone's criticism out there, and I will reply indiscriminately, anytime I feel I want to express my agreement, disagreement, or my input etc. I have formed no alliance, and it is just a coincidence that we happen to be 2 Canadians responding to your Posts.

If you feel threatened, that would explain a lot. I can assure you that my only agenda was to get across, that keeping Marijuana illegal, is not the solution to solving the problem of consumers. This is not a contest to me, it is a discussion.

But if you will excuse me for bringing this up, why would I be more biased than you are? and what does another culture have to do with the law on drugs?.

Ref: 106

"If you even choose to live in denial about things you vaccilate back and forth on, that's your right! But I find it odd that you enter a site about Mexico and insist on speaking about other locations that have nothing to do with Mexico"

I think you may have been talking more about other places than I have?


Ref: #110

"I’m “intelligent and caring” and the next claims “I’ve got a major chip on my shoulder,”

These are not contradictory, I believe your are intelligent and you care about latino youth and your groups, but you are constantly on the defensive and reading in culture, race, femininity, drugs where they do not exist.

"Even in the posts where I discuss White privilege (in spite of the fact that I’m HALF WHITE and freely admit there IS such a thing)"

If by White privilege you mean, that there are prejudices out there, I agree 100%. But you put too much importance on the white part. Being white is not a free pass to everything in this world.

It reminds me a little of my late father who had a 6th grade education, and spent his life saying if I had an education, I can't do this because I don't have an education, I am limited because I don't have an education. He spent most of his life thinking he was being prejudiced because of his education, until the day I sat with him and pointed out that Onasis one of the richest men had an elementary school education and that there were thousands of multimillionaires with no eduction higher than elementary, and reminded of so and so down the street that did not have an education but was well off, then so and so who had a law degree but was working as traveling salesman etc... It's always greener on the other side of the street.

You have white men and women who are prejudiced because of their appearance, because they are female, because they are poor, because they only speak french, because they only speak english, because they are jews, because they are Jehovah Witneses because they are bald etc.. etc...

You talk about being called names, I am a french speaking Canadian, I have been called a frog, frenchy, canuck etc... when I was in the US military basic training, we were 2 french speaking, one from France and myself. I was Frenchy #1 because my bunk was closer to the door and the other was Frenchy #2. Even not so long ago when traveling in Canada, oh your french speaking and from Quebec oh you must be a separatist, ah no, it surprises me etc...

As far as races, on my fathers side my great grand mother came straight from Scotland on a ship at age 16, my many times great grand father came from France, on my mother's side I have no idea, that side of the family never talked about our ancestry. My two sons are half Newfoundlander, they were english speaking, when I came back to Quebec, so imagine english speaking Newfie kids in a French school right at the top of the Newfie Jokes Trend (for those who do not know Newfoundland is a Province of Canada which people have made fun of and make Newfie jokes) My two grand sons are half Inuit (that's eskimo for those who don't know, and by the way, Inuits do not like being called Eskimos that was a name put on them by the white man) my other son is living with an Inuit. My future wife is indigenous Mexican. My 2 sons are bilingual French and English and some Inuktituk (language of the inuits) my grandsons are also bilingual English and Inuktituk and some French. My future wife unilingual Spanish.

From the Artic to the Tropic of Cancer via Vietnam. I don't see how I could be prejudice and not know about prejudice. But then what is that compared to Steven Hawkins, Phd, maybe more than one, who has been in a wheel chair, talking through a voice synthetiser for most of his life, yet one of the top scientist in the world, who was told many years ago that he did not have long to live, but just trucked on, instead of feeling sorry for himself. There are thousands of examples like that in the world.

"but honestly, you are boring me with the same stuff over and over."

I do not want to be disrespectful, but I think you should try and reread your posts, hope you don't get bored before you finish.

Luc



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 3:53 PM

Views: 25796

    

Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

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“First of all, I have no idea where you got the idea we are trying to force it on the Mexican people. But seeing as you brought it up, sure, Mexicans should have the same right to smoke as Canadians should.”

Okay Scott, I’ll bite…WHY should they have the right to smoke pot if their society feels it should be illegal? Because you said so? Why is your opinion more important than theirs?

“How does going to a violent gangster movie help society? How does it help a person to actually pay a lot of money to go see people get shot and killed and see endless violent crime? Over time, how does affect their mental state, and thought patterns?”

In answer to your question, it doesn’t. Nor do violent video games. Nor do websites that promote violence. None of these things benefit society and generally they contribute to the stereotyping of minorities, which I don’t approve of.

“Sure, Latinos might join gangs based on need to survive, etc, etc.. But the stuff in tv highly influences otherwise decent white people, and the kids grow up thinking its cool to be a crack head african american in the ghetto. This portrayal in the media of ghetto life, is far worse than the drugs themselves. Why? Because apparently ghetto life is violent. And these kids grow up being what is refered to as a "white nigger".”

Interesting paragraph…especially the reference to “decent white people” vs. the continual reference to “violent latinos.” Also the assumption that ghetto life is violent, which may be true in some cases and not in others. I do agree with you though that white youth do try to adapt to the stereotyping done in these movies and end up looking rather foolish….which goes back to why I do believe in white pride movements. I think at this point, with all the confused white kids trying to emulate bad movies, it’s probably needed, if for no other reason than to provide them with pride in their identity. I’m not real big on white kids that don dreadlocks and try to run around sounding like wanna be Jamaicans or white kids that adopt the ghetto lingo of Latino barrios, referring to women as “rukas” and “hinas” and all that crap. It sickens me! I also think Latino women that put those silly lined, Mickey Mouse lips and painted eyebrows look rather silly and when the White gals copy this I really want to laugh because it looks even MORE rediculous to me.

“Drugs themselves are not violent.” Wrong…there are drugs that if consumed can make a person EXTREMELY violent…and I believe Angel Dust is one.

“They just have violent distribution in your poor latino barrios.” Actually Scott, they have violent distribution in ALL minority neighborhoods and sometimes even in White neighborhoods.

“I think that now, you are trying to claim to know all about white suburban life. Having grown up in your poor and violent latino barrio, what makes you an expert on small town culture and life? Just because you and your people are violent, referring to Latinos in American barrios, that does not mean drug distribution is violent everywhere.”

Wow! Do you really believe this crap? I am not an expert on White suburban life, but I have lived in White Suburban communities. Honestly, I didn’t care for them much for the reasons I stated. I ended up selling a house in Mukilteo Washington in a planned community after just one year because I hated the place, and the place had a golf course and was planning to have a Marina at a later date. It just didn’t appeal to me. I bought it initially because I wanted my son to have a decent neighborhood and school system, but even HE hated it, so we moved. Fortunately, it was at a time when real estate prices were escalating so we came out of the deal pretty nicely.

“Perhaps white people just don't have that same tendancy towards violence, that others do.”

Really? Then how do you account for the lynchings of Black people in the past for simply not being the preferred race? How do you account for the fact that recently, five White youths beat the hell out of two migrant workers for no apparent reason what-so-ever? How do you account for the fact that in Vietnam, many Vietnamese were tortured in the most inhumane manners? How do you account for the fact that there are Jeffrey Dahmers and such a fine list of serial killers who were White. I’d rethink that last statement if I were you, because there is a long history of violence by White folks that proves differently.

Do I believe that Whites are more violent because of this? No. I don’t think you can differentiate violence by race. I think if you honestly evaluate violence, you may find that the ratio of violence throughout history goes all ways.


“I researched LSD fully before trying it, and concluded it was not bad.” May I ask you where you obtained your medical background to reach this conclusion? What research and physiological, not to mention psychological studies did you obtain that helped you reach your verdict? I mean you DID research this right? And what is your background and education that provided you with the skillset to research LSD?

I’m sorry Scott, but my inclination is to believe that you don’t have the proper background to “research” LSD properly. I’m glad you didn’t have any lasting effects from it and I hope you never have any lasting effects from any of the drugs you ever choose to toy with. I’m not out to limit your decision to take drugs in Canada…that’s your business. All I’m saying is that if Mexican people have decided they don’t want drugs legal in THEIR country, then I’m all for them. As far as the U.S.? I will never vote for, endorse or otherwise help the legalization of pot or any other controlled substances. I have too many concerns about the costs of correcting such actions and I don’t like the idea of my tax dollars paying for the treatment of drug addicts or even sponsoring them with social services dollars when they give up on life. What they choose to do with their lives is their business until it affects MY pocket book!

Marisol



pedro naco

Nov 25, 2002, 5:21 PM

Views: 25789

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

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holy smokes i can't believe all the claptrap and baffle garb thats been going in in this thread.

to scott et al-you're talking to a person who is like a christian fundamentalist-you'll never win-give it up and let her whisper her crap into her own ear-maybe one day she'll end up being a happy person of sorts after getting tired of her own retoric.

peace and dobbie dobbie do-puff puff puff-far out man-yu busted my cymbal man-hey jack come back get on the road again.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 7:47 PM

Views: 25771

    

Re: [pedro] fuel to the fire

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Oh my God,

Gotta give it to you, THIS was amusing!

THANK YOU! I can't provide a better illustration of WHY one should opt not to do drugs...he's done it for me. It reminds me of that kid with the peace sign and the quarters...LOL



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 7:55 PM

Views: 25768

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

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Even better! Shades of Jerry Garcia and Santa Cruz and burnt out hippies who walk around saying, you know maayn. I even think I heard Janis Joplin in there somewhere saying, "here's a song of great social and political import!"

I must admit...if anything EVER made me smile, THAT did. God Pedro! Bless you for bringing back memories of a day when people were COMPLETELY burnt out, self involved and sleeping in beat up VW buses while having free love and offering poppies to police men. I think I'll go try to find something paisely to wear to bed and pretend that free love enhanced my life in some way....ROFL



scott

Nov 25, 2002, 8:06 PM

Views: 25763

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

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I hope you're not judging someone based on their appearance.



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:10 PM

Views: 25763

    

Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

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No Scott,

That was only icing on the cake compared to his post...LOL



pedro naco

Nov 25, 2002, 8:58 PM

Views: 25758

    

Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

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heh,i came back as a canadian to,eh! and not only that i magically have all my fingers returned too!

man what medicine-whew!



MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 9:18 PM

Views: 25762

    

Re: [pedro] fuel to the fire

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Pedro,

You actually had me whip out my oldies...American Woman, get away from meee. American woman, mama set me freee.

And just think, I didn't even try the peyote...LOL I admit, I'm just naturally wacked out....it must be all that misery in my life...or maybe the fact that my doctor writes in my medical charts that I'm an obese "White" woman with pendulous breasts and an appendectomy scar at my pantyline. Or maybe it's because they refer to me as one of those "creative types" at work and that's supposed to be something bad....smile.

At any rate, I'll take a mental note to try as be as happy as the rest of the people in here bitching about things...and maybe if I'm blessed I'll have a personal visit from Jerry Faldwell in my sleep and even Jim Jones or if you're REAL lucky old Jerry Garcia will haunt me with nightmares and I'll wake up and fall to my knees, clutching a marijuana leaf and crying out, "I repent! Pot smoking is the savior to mankind...oops, and womankind." Cause we all know I wouldn't want to be sexist, right?

But then, I'd always have to progress into a Yuppy after that and damn! That would be awful for me, because I'd have to vote for George Bush Jr. and actually put on some Tammy Faye Baker makeup and I'm sorry, but I draw the line at blue eyeshadow!