Forums > Areas > Southern Mexico

1 2 View All

Brian

Oct 16, 2006, 4:53 AM

Post #1 of 29 (5133 views)

Shortcut

This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

A picture is worth more than a thousand words:

http://news.yahoo.com/...3bGk2OHYzBHNlYwN0bXA-

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 16, 2006, 6:45 AM)

arbon

Oct 16, 2006, 5:24 AM

Post #2 of 29 (5122 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] Iraq or Mexico?

Can't Post |

They seem to be Mexicans in Mexico.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

nfabq

Oct 17, 2006, 2:04 AM

Post #3 of 29 (5044 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

What's your point,Brian? What would you have the government do?

Norm

Brian

Oct 17, 2006, 4:20 AM

Post #4 of 29 (5041 views)

Shortcut

Re: [nfabq] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Well, I think when public servants are kidnapped, blindfolded and put on display for the media with impunity, it is perhaps time to take action at the Federal level. Their crime, according to the accompanying blurb, was trying to retrieve one of their fire trucks which had been used as a barricade to cripple the city services, not the least of which is fire protection. The answer to your question, I believe, is for the government to send in federal officers (not the military), forcefully remove the barricades and prosecute anyone who is found to be committing crimes. I don't think that the motive of the lawbreakers is relevant when it comes to crimes of violence. The order must be restored and the people of Oaxaca need to be able to live their lives in peace and safety. The children should be in school. The governor should be ousted by methods consistent with a democracy.

Brian

When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 17, 2006, 5:49 AM)

DoDi2

Oct 17, 2006, 1:02 PM

Post #5 of 29 (4987 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

... prosecute anyone who is found to be committing crimes...

In that case the first person to be prosecuted would be the governor.

raferguson

Oct 17, 2006, 9:11 PM

Post #6 of 29 (4941 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

I tend to agree with you that the federal government has waited too long to step in.

People talk about the "Rule of Law", which is something that Mexico and most third world countries tend to lack. We saw that in Lopez Obrador declaring himself President, we see it in terms of anarchy or mob rule in Oaxaca.

Rule of Law is a desirable state of affairs, it implies that most people follow the law, and those who do not follow the law are generally punished appropriately. The word in Mexico is "inpunidad" (impunity), and it is often used to refer to powerful people who break laws, but it can refer to criminals or situations like Oaxaca or Atenco where organized groups blatantly break the law and dare the government to act against them.

Not surprisingly, countries that lack an effective Rule of Law are not good places to do business. It just makes everything too unpredictable, when a powerful person or an organized group can impose their will, even when it is not "legal". Without a rule of law, what happens is rule by the powerful, whether their power lies in money, organization, or organized crime.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

arbon

Oct 17, 2006, 9:44 PM

Post #7 of 29 (4936 views)

Shortcut

Re: [raferguson] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post |

Americans quote the American constitution, but talk about the American rule of law applied in Mexico.

Mexicans have the Mexican constitution, Americans would do well to read it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

nfabq

Oct 17, 2006, 10:34 PM

Post #8 of 29 (4930 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

I applaud your new style of presenting your position,Brian.It should generate a good controversial discussion.Maybe the moderator can move it to another forum where it can get more play.

As for my position: Some of us still believe in freedom of assembly and the right to petition for the redress of grievances. I think we learned that at the Boston Tea Party,if my memory serves.

Norm

sfmacaws

Oct 17, 2006, 11:07 PM

Post #9 of 29 (4925 views)

Shortcut

Re: [nfabq] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

As Arbon pointed out Norm, those are rights in the US constitution not the Mexican one. Even so, they don't include the right to block access to the citizens of the city, to carjack fire trucks and other govt vehicles and use them to block that access, to prevent students from exercising their right to an education, to storm and take over govt buildings, to violently punish anyone who dares to disagree with them up to and apparently including murdering a teacher by beating him to death. Get real. It's out of control in Oaxaca and unless the federal govt of Mexico wants to pretend that Oaxaca is no longer a state in the Republic, then they need to go in and restore order. Of course, part of the reason they don't want to do that is that it is the goal of the professional demonstrators that have flocked to Oaxaca to provoke the federal govt into an act they can beat their chests and complain to the world about. There is no easy solution but perhaps the one that is happening is the answer, wait them out and wait until they have pushed it so far that they have lost all support anywhere in the state or the rest of the country. Hey, it seems to have worked with AMLO.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

nfabq

Oct 18, 2006, 1:31 AM

Post #10 of 29 (4918 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Jonna,we are not on entirely opposite sides of this issue,just on some significant ones.I agree the violence is undesireable,but I also think it's unfortunate and unnecessary because honest negotiation in the first place could have avoided it.As for the murder,we don't know anything but accusations so far.As for the out side demonstrators the papers speak of,I haven't seen evidence of it yet,perhaps you have, and if so you may correct me.

People, teachers or not,need to be able to use protest,and even civil disobedience, if they are prepared to take the lawful consequences for their actions.There may not be any other way to match power with power and have people's concerns dealt with! What do you think would have happened to the Civil Rights Movement in the US otherwise? A number of us lay in the streets then and it was only our strength in unity that enabled us to negotiate with the "powers" from a position of equal power to bring about the changes we needed and demanded.It's a last desparate action,not a first one,and responsible people use it reluctantly when there is nothing else.

As for the constitutional question,I know very well what constitution it's in.What we are discussing here is how WE feel about it and I presented my feeling. Furthermore,Jonna,think way back to your American history and you'll no doubt remember that we did not have a constitution that gave that right to the people at the time of the Boston Tea Party! It was the right thing to do then ,as it is today.

Norm

Bubba

Oct 18, 2006, 8:35 AM

Post #11 of 29 (4891 views)

Shortcut

Re: [arbon] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Thank you Arbon. The printing of these incendiary pictures out of context and preaching about the rule of law by outsiders is becoming a bit tiresome. The authorities have shown prudent restraint in trying to minimize the potential for violence in Oaxaca and they have done so with memories of what can happen if law enforcement is imprudent. Perhaps Mexicans can learn from our Waco or Kent State or Birmingham. Where I grew up the rule of law was that blacks couldn´t vote or use public bathrooms. Let´s hear it for the rule of law. If I remember correctly. Bull Connor loosed his thugs and their dogs on the civil rights demonstrators in Birmingham because they were interfering with civil order. The FBI and national guard sure restored order in Waco and Kent State.

I noted the unfounded comment that someone was "apparently" murdered by the protesters as originally brought up by Brian. There is no basis in fact whatsoever to believe that this killing was carried out by a teacher´s faction or their allies.. Let´s stick to the facts.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 18, 2006, 11:36 AM)

arbon

Oct 18, 2006, 9:52 AM

Post #12 of 29 (4872 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Bubba] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post |

When we were discussing the coffee/drug situation in Southern Mexico, the Boston tea party came to mind, because "Tea" was a drug sanctioned by the government of that time.

The price of 4 ounces of "Tea" at that time in England, was the equivalent of a full grown sheep.

The Boston "Tea" party was to do with paying taxes in the British port of Boston, and led to the Americans use of the non government sanctioned drug "coffee".

It is easy to see who was right, just depends on whose eyes and in what direction they were looking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brian

Oct 18, 2006, 11:00 AM

Post #13 of 29 (4862 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Bubba] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

The printing of these incendiary pictures out of context and preaching about the rule of law by outsiders is becoming a bit tiresome. The authorities have shown prudent restraint in trying to minimize the potential for violence in Oaxaca and they have done so with memories of what can happen if law enforcement is imprudent.
I noted the unfounded comment that someone was "apparently" murdered by the protesters as originally brought up by Brian. There is no basis in fact whatsoever to believe that this killing was carried out by a teacher´s faction or their allies.. Let´s stick to the facts.

In an earlier thread, someone called attention to photos of the teachers strike. That was not out of context but, now that things are literally heating up, pictures of what is going on today are too disturbing? Also, the authorities have not shown restraint...the strike turned to violence when the governor of the state of Oaxaca unleashed the troops. Whether you want to believe it or not, governments can maintain control without creating incidents like Waco, Birmingham, Kent State or the Plaza of Three Cultures.

How can anyone compare the actions of APPO with the civil rights movement? Ghandi, King and Chavez were committed to non-violent means to accomplish their goals. Take another look at that photo of the hostage firemen and the accompanying 188 pictures of the chaos and then ask yourself whether those leaders would have approved. It was not I who made the initial claim that the murdered teacher was a victim of APPO. It was the head of the national teacher's union (admittedly a partisan politician) but nonetheless of some stature in the country.

Today, I discovered a blogger who is a resident of Oaxaca. He seems to be privy to some information which will undoubtedly be challenged by those who do not want to believe their own eyes even when the pictures clearly tell at least part of the story. In any case, here is the link and, as in all things, try to think outside the box...

http://markinmexico.blogspot.com/

un saludo cordial
Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 18, 2006, 11:51 AM)

Bubba

Oct 18, 2006, 12:08 PM

Post #14 of 29 (4830 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

How can anyone compare the actions of APPO with the civil rights movement?

When the civil rights movement was actively trying to change repressive laws and customs through civil disobedience, Martin Luther King´s Southern Christian Leadership Conference was branded a communist front by no less than the FBI which infiltrated that and other civil rights organizations in an attempt to discredit or even jail their leaders. Perhaps you have forgotten what it was like then, Brian but I was in the thick of it and if you think anyone is in danger in Oaxaca today I can assure you there were few scarier places on the planet than the Deep South in the 60s. .

By the way, SCLC, SNCC, CORE and other active civil rights organizations performed many acts of civil disobedience in order to induce state sponsored and partisan violence in those days and to assert otherwise is to be naive. Just as in Oaxaca, the business community and tourism industry were greatly hurt in the south by the actions of the SCLC and that was intentional. Who now would argue with the results? Well, many people all over the United States and the Federal Government did then for years.

I am not equating APPO´s struggle with that of Dr. King but I am also not posting hyped photographs and equating the situation in Oaxaca with that of Iraq - an obscene overstatement if there ever was one. I am also not asserting I know who murdered a partisan during these difficult times from my vantage point in Jalisco or Texas. Any foreigner who claims to understand the situation in Oaxaca is in way over his or her head. There are tremendous social problems and much dire poverty in Oaxaca but it is up to Mexicans to resolve these problems among themselves, not pontificating foreigners

And, speaking of the rule of law. So far, despite the seeming Sturm and Drang in both local and national elections as well as in Oaxaca, so far the rule of law seems to be working if fitfully, I remember it worked rather fitfully in that Deep South I was just discussing when opposing social forces were fighting for advantage. This too shall pass.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 18, 2006, 12:13 PM)

Bubba

Oct 18, 2006, 8:55 PM

Post #15 of 29 (4784 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Today, I discovered a blogger who is a resident of Oaxaca. He seems to be privy to some information which will undoubtedly be challenged by those who do not want to believe their own eyes even when the pictures clearly tell at least part of the story. In any case, here is the link and, as in all things, try to think outside the box...

http://markinmexico.blogspot.com/

OK Brian. I read through Mark´s blog about Oaxaca so I could think outside the box and found myself boxed in by Mark´s strident conservatism which is OK but it does seem to get in the way of his objectivity. I would read it if I were among you just for background but keep his partisanship in mind and take the content with a grain of salt just as you would my remarks or Brian´s.

Like so many blogging on both the left and the right, it´s like reading the Daily Worker or The John Birch Society´s New American. Not characterised by succinctness but with some gems if you can wade through the jargon.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 18, 2006, 8:57 PM)

sfmacaws

Oct 19, 2006, 3:08 AM

Post #16 of 29 (4773 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Bubba] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

He has some great quotes on there! He obviously at least reads spanish fluently and spends some time reading Mexican papers. I admit, some of his stuff had me rolling on the floor. I know, it's hard for you lefties to take but just consider how hard it is being on here day after day listening to your weird ideas of the world.

Quote

Perhaps the Tabasco state PRI director has said it best:

AMLO is just like an elephant. He came home to his own land to die.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

geri

Oct 19, 2006, 6:39 AM

Post #17 of 29 (4760 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Bubba] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

I think you all have written very reasonable, well thought-out analyses re comparing what's happening in Oaxaca now to some of the U.S. historical protests. Force, for the most part, makes things worse. It was the "force" of the government who dropped teargas on June 14 that escalated the teacher's protest. It didn't cause it, but it certainly was the trigger that formed APPO. The government DID try to stop this protest with force. It's a peaceful protest, as far as the man-on-the-street is concerned...so far. Protestors are getting hurt for sure but, there's not out and out fighting in the streets. Let's say, Brian, that the police/military came in and stopped what's happening now. Does that "cure" the underlying discontent/cause of the massive protest? Might not Oaxaca have to remain under military guard if this can't be settled by negotiation? Or, might not it erupt at another time, maybe even greater and stronger than now? I don't have the answers but I, and so far the Mexican people, prefer negotiation. We're not talking about 100 people or so, but hundreds of thousands, who want the governor's abuses stopped. Somehow, I gotta believe that he's not the right governor for Oaxaca, even though he was elected. The electoral process is not perfect. It is, after all, a people process. Re the governor, I am only judging by what some Mexicans tell me. Of course, the business people want a fast solution now. I just don't see that happening.

I guess, by definition, there's anarchy in Oaxaca. But that word conjures up more disruption than what I'm personally experiencing here. I don't want to make light of the situation but except for noisey buses now roaring up my street, my life isn't disrupted very much. I went to a village for lunch yesterday, and will go to another tomorrow and Monday. Oaxaca's wonderful transportation system is functioning...maybe a bit slower than usual but people are getting from point A to point B, safely. The city is not pretty. But graffiti doesn't hurt me. (Only hurt's my eyes, but some of it is quite creative, actually.)

I really think credit should be given to the Mexican people and the Mexican government for the restraint they have showed during this massive protest. I know it must be hard to imagine how a city can function without a police force, but it has for five months. Neighborhoods have banded together to keep out thieves. Except for the June 14 incident, there's been very little looting of stores and businesses. Targets seem to be buses. There are burned and battered buses everywhere, being used as road blocks. Life is certainly different here than before June 14, but the city is functioning.

The more I hear and read about the political situation, the more complicated I realize it is. It's VERY complicated. I can't begin to understand the political intricacies of Mexico and especially of Oaxaca, so I will limit my 2 pesos to just what I, personally, am experiencing. I hope it helps some of you to get a better grasp on what's happening here. No one knows when or how it will end and I think most foreigners would be presumptious to try to decide what's the right solution for the Oaxaquenos. They must, and will, figure it out for themselves.

Bubba

Oct 19, 2006, 7:52 AM

Post #18 of 29 (4750 views)

Shortcut

Re: [geri] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Thank you geri for the most balanced view of the situation in Oaxaca I´ve seen.

You know Jonna, I hear you about Mark´s blog even though I am one of those lefties you disparage (not personally, I know). Just last night, after reading part of Mark´s blog, I gave myself a test. I pulled up two web sites. One anti-communist web site out of Miami which I think is probably mainly anti-Castro Cuban sponsored and had a short article on Oaxaca and one openly socialist web site. Both contained much strident rhetoric about Oaxaca. I read about the same events on both web sites and the take on the problem was so different as to be ludicrous. On one site based on the same events , Oaxaca and Chiapas are threatened by imminent revolution from the left and on the other the authorities are fascist dogs repressing the seekers of justice and equality. There is nothing wrong with our reading all of these informational sites but we owe it to ourselves to read with a jaundiced eye.

What I was objecting to in the tone of this thread is the presumptious commentary based on reported events without merit. Comparing Oaxaca to Iraq because of pictures of bound firemen for instance or assumptions that partisan accusations that an ice pick murder reflected interfactional violence were true on their face.

If you pull up Mexican news under Google this morning you will see that two more headless human corpses have been found in Michoacan in the trunk of a Jetta, bringing to 17 the number of recorded decapitations in that state this year. Also yesterday, two human heads were found in a suitcase in the heart of Ciudad Alta Mirano, Guerrero along with a revenge note. Authorities suspect all of this is narcotraficante related but in Michoacan alone there has been a huge increase in violent crime this year . Yet, one doesn´t see comparisons between Michoacan or Guerrero and the civil war in Iraq.

The states of Oaxaca and Chiapas come in for more than their fair share of negative reporting because many foreigners and Mexicans in other parts of Mexico consider them lawless places subject to revolutionary zeal. so events are blown out of proportion at times. True the states are poverty stricken and there is much violence and social tension.. Well folks, you don´t need to go to Southern Mexico or the northern frontier to find rampant crime and social tension. You don´t even need to leave the confines of Central Mexico to find this sort of thing. Witness the rapidly deteriorating crime situation in Michoacan.

On that subject, there has been a large spike in violent crime in mid-American cities and it is not all related to illegal immigration as Lou Dobbs claims. In fact most of it is related to poverty in ´ traditionally poverty stricken ghettos throughout the U.S..

Look to your own back yard, folks.

Anyway, thanks again, geri for that well balanced post.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 19, 2006, 7:56 AM)

Brian

Oct 19, 2006, 8:21 AM

Post #19 of 29 (4744 views)

Shortcut

Re: [geri] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

geri wrote: "I really think credit should be given to the Mexican people and the Mexican government for the restraint they have showed during this massive protest. I know it must be hard to imagine how a city can function without a police force, but it has for five months. Neighborhoods have banded together to keep out thieves. Except for the June 14 incident, there's been very little looting of stores and businesses." geri Thank you for the on- the- scene post and I am sincerely happy that you are out of harm's way and do not feel threatened personally by the events as they are unfolding. I wish that I could share your optimism about the Mexican neighbors being able to police themselves in an efficient manner. There is a very slippery slope here which looks anyway a lot like vigilantism. Once again, a picture is worth more than words from me or anyone else. It comes from Reuters and AP and they are taken yesterday. These men may in fact be guilty of crimes but should the mob determine how they should be dealt with? As for letting the Mexicans handle their own problems without interference from outsiders like me, that is going to happen in any event. Just because everything will all come out in the wash eventually, it doesn't mean that the outcome will be a just one and certainly not one in which the end justifies the means. My father-in-law, who shined shoes for Villa's soldiers in Chihuahua during his childhood, welcomed me into his family with this axiom: "Brian, there are three ways to do anything in life, the right way, the wrong way and the Mexican way." Ok, get ready for some more disturbing news photos showing how crime is being controlled in Oaxaca "the Mexican way" in the absence of functioning schools and public services. http://news.yahoo.com/...006oaxacaunrest/p:11 Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 19, 2006, 11:54 AM)

sfmacaws

Oct 19, 2006, 12:45 PM

Post #20 of 29 (4705 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Bubba] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Geez Bubba, you're sounding like you are here in the middle with me!! I agree with you that the rhetoric from both sides is so full of it that it's hard to wade through. My only exception is that I would compare Guerrero and coastal Michoacan with Afghanistan not Iraq, they don't have the sophistication of Iraq. Those areas have been outside the law - at least law as I like to think of it not private armies wearing police uniforms - for as long as I've been alive. It is not an accident that we always turn up to GDL when coming down the west coast and that there may never be a cute little Guerrero sticker on my map of Mexico. Oaxaca and Chiapas on the other hand have horrible poverty but without the caciques that dominate Guerrero and Michoacan. They have political revolts and even stuff like is now happening in the city of Oaxaca is not as frightening to me as the level of personal violence that I feel exists in Guerrero. I may be wrong but no one I know has tried to convince me that it is a safe place to drive around. If I had a reason or a strong desire to go to Oaxaca, I would probably risk it now although maybe not in our RV - I get cold shivers thinking of what a great street barricade our beloved Tortuga would make laying on her side. All this is only to say that when people are poor and getting the shaft from the govt they do things I might not approve of but I do understand. When there are brutal bosses who get off on violence and use it like a TV set and when there is no one who can stand up against them, I have a lot less compassion - like none.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

geri

Oct 19, 2006, 1:31 PM

Post #21 of 29 (4695 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

You wrote: I wish that I could share your optimism about the Mexican neighbors being able to police themselves in an efficient manner.

This statement is SO revealing. Mexicans believe that people in the U.S. look down upon them. It seems to me that is your perch also. You don't think the Mexicans can police themselves???? My God, what an arrogant attitude that is. They may do it differently, for sure. I LOVE your father-in-law's statement....the right way, the wrong way and the Mexican way. Please have more faith in your Mexican neighbors. Please. Let them solve their problems their way. Why aren't they entitled to that?

Brian

Oct 19, 2006, 2:15 PM

Post #22 of 29 (4682 views)

Shortcut

Re: [geri] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

This statement is SO revealing. Mexicans believe that people in the U.S. look down upon them. It seems to me that is your perch also. You don't think the Mexicans can police themselves???? My God, what an arrogant attitude that is.

OK, I am sure some people will be happy with this, but, I give up. I questioned the "Mexican neighbors" being able to police themselves. If they could, there would be no need for police departments. People are projecting far more into some of these messages rather than reading them literally. This thread is entitled "This looks more like Iraq than Mexico". Somehow some of the readers here think that I made a direct comparison of the dynamics of the respective conflicts in the two countries. The comparison was solely about the imagery i.e. the blindfolded hostages. I didnt say or imply that there was a Mexican Al Zarqawi waiting behind them to cut off their heads. You are probably right, though, I may be guilty of a bit of arrogance when it comes to this message board. I do believe that my postings are well-thought-out and that some people here can write brilliantly but don't read very well.

saludos
Brian

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 19, 2006, 2:52 PM)

Bubba

Oct 19, 2006, 2:32 PM

Post #23 of 29 (4673 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

All this is only to say that when people are poor and getting the shaft from the govt they do things I might not approve of but I do understand. When there are brutal bosses who get off on violence and use it like a TV set and when there is no one who can stand up against them, I have a lot less compassion - like none.

Oh My God, Nurse, the defibrillator! Jonna, what the hell are you smoking?

I always knew you were one of us behind that Deputy Dawg persona.

Thanks for the hilarious mind image of Died-In-The-Wool-Republican Tortuga on its back manning the APPO barricades with Mimi sitting on the corner telling Jonna, "I told you all we had to do was take a bus to Oaxaca and leave Tortuga at Bubba´s place in San Cristobal with a frig full of beer and he would have guarded it with his life."

If the papers get a picture of you. Mimi and Tortuga blockading an intersection at an APPO checkpoint and Brian publishes it in Mark´s blog, the Marin County Republican Caucus will kick you out on your ear.

You are quite right about Guerrero and parts of Michoacan. Quite frankly, when I see what is going on in Michoacan these days in places such as Uruapan, I am taken aback. What the hell is going on there? When I drive through Michoacan on my way from Guadalajara to the much maligned Oaxaca and Chiapas, I´m staying on the freeway ´till I hit the Mexico state line.

I have a new line for Jalisco Mexicans who seem astonished that we bought a house in Chiapas. This afternoon, my chicken purveyor in Riberas told me I was out of my tree buying a house in such a dangerous place. I told him, "Yeah, but such a deal.".

One other thing. To the local Mexicans at Lake Chapala, they think it will be way too hot in San Cristobal. I tell them it´s at 2,150 Meters and if anything it´s too cold. They just kind of stare at me. .

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 19, 2006, 3:03 PM)

jacpowell

Oct 20, 2006, 3:06 PM

Post #24 of 29 (4585 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

Okay, get ready for a confessed bleeding heart liberal (aka Pollyanna) -

My heart goes out to all the people who are caught up in this terrible situation. The teachers, the other protestors, the residents who are not a part of the conflict, the businessmen who are having financial difficulty, the government employees who have not been allowed to do their jobs (which is difficult to do well in the best of times). The only ones I don't feel sorry for are the children -- I would have given my right cojone (were I male) to have a vacation this long when I was a kid.

I think "The Mexican Way" often means acknowledging and accepting the status quo for what it is, and making the best of the situation. NOB we often get our knickers in a knot over hangnail-size "crises." Can you imagine something going on this long up here without its escalating more than it has?

I don't hear much about what is going on out in the countryside, but I'm sure it isn't nearly as intense as it is in Oaxaca City.

I just hope it's all resolved by January 15 when we will return to Oaxaca City for a couple of months. And in the best of all possible worlds, all the graffiti will be gone - We are historic preservationists by trade, and we don't like seeing those fine old buildings disfigured. But such is life....

Bubba

Oct 20, 2006, 9:12 PM

Post #25 of 29 (4571 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jacpowell] This looks more like Iraq than Mexico. When will the government resume control?

Can't Post | Private Reply

jacpowell writes:

I don't hear much about what is going on out in the countryside, but I'm sure it isn't nearly as intense as it is in Oaxaca City.

I just hope it's all resolved by January 15 when we will return to Oaxaca City for a couple of months. And in the best of all possible worlds, all the graffiti will be gone - We are historic preservationists by trade, and we don't like seeing those fine old buildings disfigured. But such is life....

I´m sure you are right that it is not as intense in the country as in the city. Of course, as you know, Oaxaca is a big, rugged state with countless isolated towns and hamlets and I would venture that there is very little intense activity in the countryside just about anywhere. We monitor this fairly closely since we are supposed to go to Oaxaca State in the first part of December to take part in some long planned ceremonies in Teotitlan del Valle near Oaxaca City. Our friends there have suffered some hardship in rug sales but assure us that there are no problems in the village except for diminished sales of their craft and that villagers have long since run the schools themselves. They run into occasional problems in the city but consider it to be an inconvenience more than anything else. None of them have communicated with us any sense of personal danger. They have suggested that, should we drive into the valley from our home in Chiapas and the isthmus we should encounter no difficulties whatsoever since we needn´t cross the city.

Along the Isthmus of Tehuantepec locals and local teachers have been running the schools as well and they have seemed to show little sympathy for prolonged troubles in the state capital.

However, jacpowell, if you hope to see a grafitti free Oaxaca whether the conflict has been resolved or not, dream on. I think you must be joking. Perhaps you mean grafitti with a less radicalized message. I would forget that as well. In San Cristobal grafitti extolling the virtues of various leftist causes is as common as kudzu in Alabama and you ain´t gone get rid of it. Same in Oaxaca. I hesitate to paint my house because I´m afraid it will become an attractive canvas for vandals but if it does, whatever the message I say right on. I have to live there, after all. Well, maybe I don´t have to live there, actually. What I mean is I want to live there. Diversity is good.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 20, 2006, 9:16 PM)

1 2 View All