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jvcnext

Aug 18, 2013, 9:48 AM

Post #1 of 79 (17271 views)

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Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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I live in Puerto Escondido and recently got my Residente Permanente visa. Can I still drive my 2011 Honda to the border from the USA and get a temporary car permit and drive this car legally in Mexico as long as I take the car in and out within the time frame of the permit. I have been told I can no longer drive a foreign plated vehicle now that I have my permanent resident visa.



sparks


Aug 18, 2013, 10:00 AM

Post #2 of 79 (17263 views)

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Re: [jvcnext] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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>>>>> I have been told I can no longer drive a foreign plated vehicle now that I have my permanent resident visa.

That part is correct

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


RickS


Aug 18, 2013, 2:47 PM

Post #3 of 79 (17214 views)

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Re: [jvcnext] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Assuming that you are single or if married your spouse is also Permanente, it is correct that you cannot drive your foreign plated CR-V. In fact, that car became illegal in Mexico the moment you got your Permanente card.

If, however, you are married and your spouse is still FM2/3 or Temporal, then you can drive that car with impunity as long as the spouse does not come Permanente. NOTE: If the car was not already in the spouses name, it must be taken to the border, cleared and then re-imported in the name of the non-Permanenete spouse.

"Can I still drive my 2011 Honda to the border from the USA"
Assuming you are single then, as I said, your CR-V is illegal and you (or someone you designate) must remove it from Mexico. The legal way to do that is to obtain a Retorno Seguro (Safe Return) document from SAT (I believe). That 'free' document is designed to let you, even if you are Permanente, drive the car to a border and remove the temporary car permit (TIP) from your computer record. Once you receive the Retorno Seguro document you have 5 days to get to a border, never to import it (or anything) again. If the circumstances require, you can designate someone else to drive it to the border for you.


(This post was edited by RickS on Aug 18, 2013, 5:03 PM)


sparks


Aug 18, 2013, 4:06 PM

Post #4 of 79 (17193 views)

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Re: [RickS] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Can you wait 3-5 months to use that Returno Seguro or is there a time limit to use it (get it)

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


RickS


Aug 18, 2013, 5:08 PM

Post #5 of 79 (17172 views)

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Re: [sparks] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sparks I don't have an answer for that....I too have the same question.

It is my understanding that the Returno Seguro 'program' was not developed recently for this Permanente situation. It's been around for other situations where a car needed to be removed from Mexico.

What I don't know, and what you are probably asking, is will something 'trip' in a Permanente's 'file' if that vehicle's record isn't updated with an exit/cancellation action at a border.

Maybe someone will answer this important question.


sparks


Aug 18, 2013, 5:36 PM

Post #6 of 79 (17166 views)

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Re: [RickS] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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I have no idea at this point who is and how well connected the computers they have are. Guess I was just wondering what questions SRE might ask about why you need it.

Have a friend that would prefer to drive north around Xmas time rather than a month from now when he goes permanent.

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


YucaLandia


Aug 18, 2013, 7:11 PM

Post #7 of 79 (17140 views)

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Re: [sparks] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Can you wait 3-5 months to use that Returno Seguro or is there a time limit to use it (get it)


Unfortunately: Nope - no waiting to use it months later. Yes, there is a time limit - 5 day expiration date .

You apply at SAT/Hacienda, and they typically tell you to come back in 1 or 2 days to pick up the permit. The Retorno Seguro permit is issued for 5 business days - which gives you 1 calendar week to make the drive to the border.

A few SAT/Hacienda offices have said they need 4 days to prepare the Retorno Seguro permit, so, check with your SAT office to find out when to apply (in time for your planned travel).
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


tashby


Aug 18, 2013, 7:18 PM

Post #8 of 79 (17135 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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I think the question is: After becoming Permanente, can you wait several months and THEN apply for the 5-day Retorno Seguro permit.


YucaLandia


Aug 18, 2013, 7:24 PM

Post #9 of 79 (17131 views)

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Re: [tashby] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
I think the question is: After becoming Permanente, can you wait several months and THEN apply for the 5-day Retorno Seguro permit.


Whew... good clarification.

One can choose to apply for the 5-day Retorno Seguro permit at any time, regardless of the type of INM permit, or when we got the INM permit.

Fortunately, there have been very few vehicle confiscations of Residente Permanente's driving TIP cars without the Retorno Seguro permit. Unfortunately, driving an illegal car is not permitted by some major car insurance companies, leaving the driver without insurance protections (no coverage) if they get into an accident while driving illegally. The Retorno Seguro permit makes the vehicle legal, and makes the insurance valid.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


RickS


Aug 19, 2013, 9:00 PM

Post #10 of 79 (17023 views)

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Re: [RickS] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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The question was answered definitively on TOB...... one does not immediately have to get the Retorno Seguro upon becoming Permanente but can wait to take the car to the border.... just don't drive it during that interim period. When ready, get the RS and then you have 5 days to get to the border and cancel the TIP.


Sculptari

Aug 21, 2013, 7:40 AM

Post #11 of 79 (16926 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
"Fortunately, there have been very few vehicle confiscations of Residente Permanente's driving TIP cars without the Retorno Seguro permit. Unfortunately, driving an illegal car is not permitted by some major car insurance companies"

Insurance is no problem through Bancomer - a major insurer in Mexico.
Please provide a contact for anyone who has had a car confiscated for clearly and only for T.I.P. violation. There are many lawyers who feel this law, in it's present form, will not withstand judicial review. They are waiting to file amparos and their subsequent windfall if the Goverment continues on this course.
no longer active on Mexconnect

(This post was edited by Sculptari on Aug 21, 2013, 8:02 AM)


AlanMexicali


Aug 21, 2013, 8:07 AM

Post #12 of 79 (16911 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
"Fortunately, there have been very few vehicle confiscations of Residente Permanente's driving TIP cars without the Retorno Seguro permit. Unfortunately, driving an illegal car is not permitted by some major car insurance companies"

Insurance is no problem through Banamex - a major insurer in Mexico.
Please provide a contact for anyone who has had a car confiscated for clearly for T.I.P. violation. There are many lawyers who feel this law, in it's present form, will not withstand judicial review. They are waiting to file amparos and their subsequent windfall if the Goverment continues on this course.


I don´t know of anyone getting a vehicle impounded except one guy in 2006 in Culiacan. I do see many Texas plated vehicles parked inside the Federal Police compound at the interchange to the new cuota at Lagos de Moreno and see Texas plated vehicle parked in the compound on the south Mx. 57 at one of the Federal Police compounds here in San Luis Potosi. So I imagine the Federal Police now are being trained in INM visas and ADUANA TIP rules and impounding "chocolates" at least in these 2 locations. I also believe they are authorized to do so and call ADUANA in when impounding a "chocolate".

It appears things have changed recently.


A recent post from someone living in Chapala:

"Maybe this explains why there seem to be so many 'police' stops out on the SLP bypass on 57.



A friend just came through there coming south. He passed (going the other way) a police car. After a bit the police car whipped around and started coming after him and pulled him over. He examined his visa and car permit; also searched his car. Then, since my friends paperwork was in order (he had just got a new tourist FMM and TIP before coming south) he was told he could continue. My friend said the police were very professional in all this and there was no indication of any mordida."


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Aug 21, 2013, 8:27 AM)


YucaLandia


Aug 21, 2013, 8:54 AM

Post #13 of 79 (16889 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To

In Reply To
"Fortunately, there have been very few vehicle confiscations of Residente Permanente's driving TIP cars without the Retorno Seguro permit. Unfortunately, driving an illegal car is not permitted by some major car insurance companies"

Insurance is no problem through Bancomer - a major insurer in Mexico.
Please provide a contact for anyone who has had a car confiscated for clearly and only for T.I.P. violation. There are many lawyers who feel this law, in it's present form, will not withstand judicial review. They are waiting to file amparos and their subsequent windfall if the Goverment continues on this course.


Sculptari,
Bancomer insurance on a foreign-plated vehicle in Mexico illegally is a big problem.

Please read Bancomer's official, publicly published Insurance policy requirements for foreigners with foreign plated cars. Both Bancomer representatives and their website make it clear: They confirm Bancomer's written official policies that auto and truck coverage requires that the vehicle must be in Mexico legally:

"The only objects of this (insurance) agreement shall be foreign vehicles that are legally and temporarily within the country, ..."

http://tmkt.segurosbancomer.com/seguros/segu_autoseg_tur_req_en.asp

Bancomer and other insurers have made it clear that they will not cover the $$ liabilities for accident claims on Temporary Imported vehicles owned by Residente Permanentes, being driven in Mexico illegally. The required financial penalties (liabilities) for killing a person accidentally in a car accident are $5 million pesos (per person) in many states.

This is one case where incomplete and incorrect internet-forum advice can cause people big trouble.

It simply is not OK to drive an illegal car in Mexico,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 21, 2013, 8:59 AM)


Sculptari

Aug 21, 2013, 9:07 AM

Post #14 of 79 (16873 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Please check with Bancomer again - they are accepting UDC issued plates, at a cost of about $400 pesos a year, as 'legal' and insurable. They are apparently advertising this near the border. An extra step perhaps, but very easy.

This is one case where sticking to strict interpretations can lead to difficulties. I am more interested in outcomes - not speculation. In July of last year you reported that the son in law of your neighbor had his U.S. plated "$70,000 BMW Crossover" impounded and towed because it had been in Mexico over 180 days. What was the outcome there? How much did he have to pay, and did he find ever find the S.O.B. who phoned him in?
no longer active on Mexconnect


YucaLandia


Aug 21, 2013, 9:45 AM

Post #15 of 79 (16857 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
Please check with Bancomer again - they are accepting UDC issued plates, at a cost of about $400 pesos a year, as 'legal' and insurable. They are apparently advertising this near the border. An extra step perhaps, but very easy.

This is one case where sticking to strict interpretations can lead to difficulties. I am more interested in outcomes - not speculation. In July of last year you reported that the son in law of your neighbor had his U.S. plated "$70,000 BMW Crossover" impounded and towed because it had been in Mexico over 180 days. What was the outcome there? How much did he have to pay, and did he find ever find the S.O.B. who phoned him in?


The UDC plates are an interesting option.
How do you deal with an Aduana/Federale combination who do not universally accept UDC plates for foreigners?

Can you document any accidents by foreign-plated Temporary Import Permit vehicles, with UCD plates, having large insurance claims approved by Bancomer for those accidents? Insurance companies love to use "fine print" exceptions and exemptions to not cover expensive claims.

Re the neighbor's car: The BMW was "bailed-out" of the impound lot after several weeks, and the (Mexican) owner renewed his Tamaulipas plates. The problem was that it had expired Tamaulipas plates - and had not been appropriately re-registered here in Yucatan. As described before: It never had anything with either foreigners, nor with being in Mexico over 180 days. I also did not know that some hypothetical "S.O.B." had turned anything in. The story told by the owner's uncle (also our neighbor) was that the BMW was just picked up in the govt's routine sweeps for cars that did not have legitimate registrations. ???
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 21, 2013, 9:59 AM)


Sculptari

Aug 21, 2013, 1:35 PM

Post #16 of 79 (16798 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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UDC plates are not a form of political insurrection - they are saying 'this vehicle is in the process of being nationalized, and is protected from seizure while this procedure is in process'. The courts have accepted this, the insurance companies accept it, the UDC's are smart enough not to drag it on forever and could be assured the insurance companies are well paid, and with replacement values well under the fully nationalized amount.

Would I take UDC plates? On a 2011 Honda - probably not, it's too valuable to risk. On the other hand, I am into custom cars and highly unique vehicles. It's amazing in Mexico - so many bodies and chassis in excellent condition (because of the dry, cool weather in Central Mexico) so many talented workers and mechanics, working for very low rates and greatful for the work. I would probably start with a fully VINed and plated Mexican 'donor' car and go from there.
no longer active on Mexconnect


Sonia Diaz


Aug 22, 2013, 12:25 PM

Post #17 of 79 (16703 views)

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Re: [jvcnext] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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It depends if you got a preapproval for the PR visa at a consulate and recently finalized in Puerto Escondido and the car permit has not expired. In this rare case you car is legal. The OP can live in Puerto Escondido and still have obtained a PR preapproval at a consulate. Many live in Mexico on FMM's and then have to return to a consulate to start visa process.

About 6 weeks ago a client was given preapproval for a Permanent Resident visa at a consulate. When entering Mexico she was given a car permit for 6 months, to mid December. Thinking that now she has her Permanent Resident visa her car is illegal, today she went to SAT in Celaya for a Returno Seguro. When there SAT employee said she did not need a Returno Seguro as the permit is good until December.

To confirm this she called from SAT and had me speak to the employee. The advice from SAT is if stopped by Federales she show her passport and car permit and not her PR visa. Her car is legal. NOTE: her car did not become illegal when she obtained her PR visa in this case.

NOTE: the car did no

In Mexico, nothing is black and white.

Sonia Diaz

cell: 044-415-106-1499

Facilitator: Seguro Popular healthcare; Immigration Visas; SAPASMA water bill reduction; Driver's License; Mexican car registration; Selling a foreign plated car in Mexico; Management Workshops similar to Laura Niño; Conversational Translation; Hacienda issues (taxation); Mexican Driving Record; Property Management; INAPAM; SRE expat approval process to buy property, etc. Fees: 300 to 600 pesos.

Cars: UCD plates and also Nationalizing NAFTA Made Vehicles; 1983 to 2007, no driving to the border

Dog Boarding: Just off Camino Alcocer at km 2.5 in a large, quiet, 11,0000 sq ft fenced, clean-air property with hundreds of open, adjoining hectares. Your pets (neutered or spayed) are part of our family and sleep in the house on their own beds. 180 pesos per night including food.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sonia/252211011634302

(This post was edited by Sonia Diaz on Aug 22, 2013, 2:14 PM)


YucaLandia


Aug 22, 2013, 2:07 PM

Post #18 of 79 (16683 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Good point about a Residente Permanente applicant at a Consulate, who still has their old temporary visa, being able to bring in a temporary import car. The Residente Permanente process is only started by the Consulates, and the applicant's temporary car only becomes illegal when they get their Residente Permanente card from INM in Mexico.

It doesn't matter in this case, since there was no Consulate involved, and the OP already has their card:
"I live in Puerto Escondido and recently got my Residente Permanente visa."

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 22, 2013, 2:08 PM)


sandyr

Aug 22, 2013, 10:16 PM

Post #19 of 79 (16606 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Just today my wife and I went to the consulate in Denver to each apply for Permanent Residence. I didn't know at the time that having a Permanent Residence card means we can no longer import our car on a temporary basis. Anyway, will we be able to get a temporary permit to import our car when we head back to Mexico to finalize obtaining the Permanent Residence? If so, once it is finalized, will we be able to legally drive the car back to the border before the temporary automobile permit expires even though we now have a Permanent Residence card? Finally, there is now a Mexico Visa stamped in each of our US passports that has a classification of "Residencia Permanente". Is it too late to change one of our applications to "temporary" as we complete the process that takes place in Mexico? There might be an advantage to having one of us be a "temporary residence" when it comes to importing the car. Any insight is much appreciated!


YucaLandia


Aug 23, 2013, 6:14 AM

Post #20 of 79 (16581 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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The special visa that you have been given as a Residente Permanente applicant, is for 30 days inside Mexico. For that reason, Aduana gives you a Temporary Import Permit (TIP) that is for only 30 days. When you get your Residente Permanente at your INM office, (a process which usually takes more than 30 days), you cannot renew the 30 day TIP. If you do not receive your Residente Permanente before the 30 day TIP expires, then your TIP expires. These situations leave you with a vehicle with an expired TIP - and some large Mexican insurance companies use this as a reason to automatically cancel insurance coverage due to driving an illegal vehicle. When you choose to drive out of Mexico with your Residente Permanente cards, you can apply at your local SAT/Hacienda office for a 5 business day Retorno Seguro Permit: Safe Returns / Retorno Seguro Permits for Taking TIP Cars to the Border. The 5 day Retorno Seguro permit allows you to drive out legally.

It sounds like the Residente Permanente permit does not fit your plans to have a temporary foreign-plated (TIP) car in Mexico. If you really want the TIP car in Mexico: You can go to your Consulate, formally cancel your application for Residente Permanente, and start over, applying for Residente Temporal permits that allow you to have a foreign-plated car in Mexico. You can read details about these things at: New Rules and Procedures for Immigration, Visiting, and Staying in Mexico
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 23, 2013, 6:22 AM)


careyeroslib

Aug 23, 2013, 6:37 AM

Post #21 of 79 (16564 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sandy, I wouldn´t rush to try to change one of you to Temporal. You´ve done all that paperwork so you need to think about it carefully.


The TIP stickers are issued by Banjercito. (You will note if you go to the SAT (Aduana) site, they redirect inquiries about temporary importation of vehicles by foreign citizens to the Banjercito website). There they have an online authorization fórm which, out of interest, I looked at and nowhere does it allow you to enter your Mexican residency status. You have to say the purpose of your visit and whether you want 7 or 180 days. (as well as other details such as citizenship and Passport number, etc.,) If you can get a TIP for 180 days I´d get it and take the time to think about what you want to do. From what I know, you have been pre-authorized to get Residente Permanente, but until the card is in your hands, it is not a done deal legally. (But you´ll get it, so no worries).


One thing I do know from experience is Federales (the pólice authorized to question these kinds of things) only care about your TIP being current (still within the 180 days). I know because I was stopped once, with an expired TIP, and was questioned. If you are ever stopped, they will just look at your windshield sticker and perhaps ask to see the TIP paperwork. Unlikely even to ask to see your Passport, or if they do, they will just look at the cover and wave you on.

Here´s the Banjercito website. You can even, I understand, get the TIP delivered to your home address in Denver. Others can better advise you on the logistics of this and crossing the border with your status (especially if you already have your TIP)

http://www.banjercito.gob.mx/


(This post was edited by careyeroslib on Aug 23, 2013, 6:45 AM)


sandyr

Aug 23, 2013, 8:12 AM

Post #22 of 79 (16536 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it. I certainly have found the information on yucalandia.com helpful.

The special visa both my wife and I have appears to have an expiration date that is 180 days from the date it was issued (yesterday). Is it possible the Aduana will issue a TIP that reflect that many days? Furthermore, I understand that I have 30 days from the date I cross the border to initiate the process with Mexican immigration to finalize the Residente Permanente permit. I'm just not sure at what point it becomes unlawful to drive our TIP car. Is it when we finally pick up the Residente Permanente permit or sometime sooner?

We have an older car (98 Jeep Grand Cherokee with 190K miles) that I purchased new and maintained that I thought would be perfect for Mexico. I actually wouldn't mind paying the cost of permanently importing it. However, I know it is important to find a reputable broker and there appears to be one at the border crossing we would use. I certainly haven't decided this is what I want to do at this time, but if I did, will the special Visa I have even allow it? One might infer that it does since it is classified as a Residente Permanente visa. It says so right on it. However, since it's a special visa, maybe I am reading too much into it. After all, if that was true, it would suggest that this Special Visa could be used for both a TIP car and to permanently import a car.

Finally, another option is to keep the process for Residente Permanente permit going for either myself or my wife and cancel the process and go for a temporary permit for the other one of us. That would appear to give us the most flexibility.

So, in conclusion, do we know whether the "special" Visa I was just issued can be used to permanently import a car? Do we know at what time a TIP car would become unlawful if I decided to go that route? Final decisions one needs to make seem to hinge on subtle interpretations of the rules (or law).


sandyr

Aug 23, 2013, 8:25 AM

Post #23 of 79 (16531 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Careyeroslib,

Thank you for your reply and pointing out that the TIP stickers are issued by the Banjercito. Sometimes I get sloppy with my writing. We have been driving our car many times into Mexico and down the coast to Bucerias (just outside P.V.). Normally we just get a tourist card and a TIP, but we would really like to keep a car permanently down there. Then there are other considerations like the potential to someday avoid capital gains that got me going on the Residente Permanente permit. Anyway, it's difficult to get the answers to questions that have so many nuances (see my recent response to Steve). All input is appreciated!


(This post was edited by sandyr on Aug 23, 2013, 8:27 AM)


YucaLandia


Aug 23, 2013, 1:00 PM

Post #24 of 79 (16481 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
Careyeroslib,

Thank you for your reply and pointing out that the TIP stickers are issued by the Banjercito. Sometimes I get sloppy with my writing. We have been driving our car many times into Mexico and down the coast to Bucerias (just outside P.V.). Normally we just get a tourist card and a TIP, but we would really like to keep a car permanently down there. Then there are other considerations like the potential to someday avoid capital gains that got me going on the Residente Permanente permit. Anyway, it's difficult to get the answers to questions that have so many nuances (see my recent response to Steve). All input is appreciated!


Are the Notarios in your specific area actually granting the Homeowners Gains Tax exemption to foreigner permanent residents / Residente Permanentes, when they sell their Mexican homes?

When we have asked this question since the Feb. 2010 ISR SAT tax law changes, there has not been a single positive reply describing any Notaries who are personally willing to risk their own personal finances $$ to approve the Homeowners gains tax waiver. The requirements to qualify for the Homeowners/Full-time Resident's exemption for gains taxes, ( gains from selling a house), are really difficult to meet.

The Notarios we have heard from say "No" to permanent residents who are still aliens/foreigners. They have all said that you must either be a Naturalized Citizen or that you must have a valid and likely-to-be-approved Naturalized Citizenship application pending with SRE.

Since the home Buyer is the one who generally picks the Notary, as Sellers, we cannot even go shopping to find a Notary who might consider approving you for the homeowner's exemption. Difficult requirements? In addition to being a citizen or near-citizen, you also have to prove that the home is your primary residence, and also prove that the home is your "principal place of fiscal activities".

There are significant deductions and depreciations that you can take to reduce the gains tax when you sell. The Homeowners exemption requirements and the deductions are described at: Capital Gains Taxes on Mexican Properties

You're making really good progress in your searches for information - moving closer to your good goals.
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


sandyr

Aug 23, 2013, 3:32 PM

Post #25 of 79 (16465 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

Thank you for that insight. That might seriously impact whether I want to go forward with the Permanent Resident permit. Other than the capital gain issue (which is obviously only relevant if we want to sell which is not consistent with enjoying our place and Mexico), the real goal was to be able to leave a car in Mexico. That seems to be more easily done with the Temporary Resident permit, although I have read the various pros and cons beyond the ability to just leave the car there. If one wants to permanently import a car, can it be done with just a tourist card or do I need either a permanent resident permit or a temporary resident permit? Or can it be done with the Permanent Resident visa which I just received? (as opposed to the Permanent Resident permit that I will only get after completing the permit process). I can't seem to find the answers to those questions.

Thanks again,

Sandy


tashby


Aug 23, 2013, 4:46 PM

Post #26 of 79 (3873 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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It's my understanding that many people in the Lake Chapala area have been exempted from the Impuesto Sobre la Renta after gaining Residente Permanente status. Every real estate agent in town who's worth anything is advising, almost insisting, that foreigners gain that status before selling their home. You might call one and ask.

I don't own a home here, so beyond that, I don't really care. I was reading this thread because it's mostly about cars.


(This post was edited by tashby on Aug 23, 2013, 5:07 PM)


at7mbe


Aug 23, 2013, 5:32 PM

Post #27 of 79 (3864 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sandy, it might help to understand that "you" don't nationalize the car, so your visa status is immaterial. The nationalization is done in the name of a Mexican citizen (that's why the import brokers require you provide them with an IFE elector's card, or maybe some brokers have a stable of Mexican citizens they can tap for the purpose). After the vehicle has been nationalized, the Mexican "sells" the car to you by signing on the back of the newly issued factura.

Nationalization is a Federal process. Getting Mexican plates in your new home state is another matter, and the requirements are not uniform. In my state of Michoacan, they require a government-issued ID, such as elector's card, military card, student ID, etc. Illogically though, a No Inmigrante (old system) or Residente Temporal or Permanente (new system) card isn't acceptable, because it's not on their list. Doesn't matter that it's issued by their Federal government, the Michoacan Rentas offices will not accept it for the purpose of purchasing placas. Nor will they accept a US driver's license from a foreigner as ID -- only a Mexican driver's license will do. Many of us have been left standing with a car -- either newly nationalized or purchased new from a dealer or used from a local Mexican -- only to not be able to get plates until we did the Mexican driver's license two-step (actually five-step -- don't ask).

I suggest you put out feelers on a PV list asking what's involved in obtaining local plates.

As for your other question about when does a temporary import permit expire, don't just parse that in terms of number of days. Still have the paperwork from one of your previous permits? Pull it out and read the language on the back -- it's in English and Spanish. Maybe they've updated the language to match the new residency categories, though I doubt it. Mine from Sept, 2012 says:

"A vehicle of a foreign national can stay in Mexico for the same time as he has a Visa as non-immigrant or immigrant rentista (retired income holder)."

Those names correspond to the old FM3 and FM2 no-lucrativa, or in the intermediate system, No Inmigrante and Inmigrante No Lucrativa. All of those old categories have been subsumed by Residente Temporal in the current system. To my mind, Residente Permanente doesn't line up with anything written on the back of the permit.

What are you when you enter Mexico with your PR visa in your passport? You're not a tourist, that's for sure. In fact, you will create problems for yourself if you let the border official check "Visitante" on the FMM form you fill out. They must check "CANJE" (exchange) and give you 30 days to exchange the FMM form for your Permanente at an INM office. So you're not a Visitante, and you sure aren't a Residente Temporal, so you're some sort of proto-Permanente or embryonic Permanente. And I don't see any language on the back of the Temporary Import Permit saying that's it's valid for you.

Doesn't mean you can't do it -- border officials aren't all armchair lawyers and fully versed in the nuances of the inconsistencies between immigration, Aduana and Banjercito. Others have suggested wily tricks like ordering your TIP online and have it delivered in the US with 180 days on it. Just 'cause you can do it doesn't make it match the language on the back of the permit. Nor does it mean your car will be confiscated within the first 50 KM after crossing the border. Likely no one will know there's a kink in the paperwork but you, and you have to decide how comfortable you are with that.

Best of luck sorting it out.

-- Mark E.


careyeroslib

Aug 24, 2013, 5:28 AM

Post #28 of 79 (3818 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sandy: One of the goals we had when we got FM3s (more than 10 years ago was to be able to keep a foreign-plated car at our place (near Puerto Vallarta). I would no longer recommend people get a Temporal with that as their goal. Why?

For one thing, you can only be Temporal for 4 years (without starting all over from your Consulate) and for another, Federales at least in our, and your, área really don´t like vehicles with expired TIPs regardless of your paperwork. And Federales are, as you know, always just before you cross the bridge from Jalisco to Nayarit. They are also often outside Aduana just south of the airport (on the laterals).

I would definitely look into importing your vehicle. I wish we could import ours, but, sadly it is a J car (VIN) and cannot be imported. There is lots of good info here on reliable importers at the various border points.

I would also continue on with the Residente Permanente process which you have successfully started. We got ours this past February and, when I found out the hassle of no longer being able to drive (or import) our beloved J vehicle, I had the same questions you do but ultimately we have come around to believing that the equivalent of a Green card (in Canada it is called "landed immigrant") is worth having had to buy a Mexican-plated vehicle.

Edit: I just read Mark´s excellent post and wanted to add that getting Jalisco plates for your vehicle isn´t all that straightforward. We bought a semi-nuevo JEEP from our our local Vallarta Chrysler dealer (in July) and we had to go to Nayarit with the dealer who submitted the plates and all sorts of paperwork (It´s in a strip mall just before San Vincente). We then went to the plate issuing office in Jalisco and ordered the plates, receiving a window sticker in the interim. The next step would have been to go and get the licence (We had to leave the country a week and a half later. Still no plates as of yet). In addition to all the running around, it might be hard to do on your own (change plates). Not sure, but it´s a consideration.

My revised advice is to consider buying a vehicle locally (in Vallarta). Go into the JEEP dealer (across from Plaza Marina) and ask them to watch out for a semi-nuevo of the type you want. The Manager at Auto Ser (the used vehicle section) seems pretty knowledgeable. They fix them up like new and guarantee them. They will change plates over if necessary, although many vehicles already have Nayarit plates. The other thing is that with a Residente Permanente and property, you can even get financing on a new vehicle. My friends from Chapala recently (July 2013) were able to get financing on a new vehicle from Auto Ser in Vallarta and she still has No-inmigrante. I believe it was about 30% down. Financing was from Scotiabank.


(This post was edited by careyeroslib on Aug 24, 2013, 5:47 AM)


YucaLandia


Aug 24, 2013, 6:21 AM

Post #29 of 79 (3807 views)

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Re: [tashby] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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It's my understanding that many people in the Lake Chapala area have been exempted from the Impuesto Sobre la Renta after gaining Residente Permanente status. Every real estate agent in town who's worth anything is advising, almost insisting, that foreigners gain that status before selling their home. You might call one and ask.

I don't own a home here, so beyond that, I don't really care. I was reading this thread because it's mostly about cars.


Interesting news.

I am still stuck with the difference between what unlicensed unregulated real estate agents tell people versus the requirement that the Notario handling the sale must personally approve each individual seller for the Homeowner's exemption, meeting the restrictive requirements of the ISR, or the Notario personally pays any taxes that result from their incorrectly awarding the exemption.

I am stuck with the question:
How many Notarios have actually approved Residente Permanentes for the gains tax exemption?

Since the Notarios are personally fiscally responsible, each Notary has the right to decide for themselves whether to approve or disapprove. The requirements for the Homeowners exemption are also sufficiently onerous that many applicants do not qualify. Talk with the Notario who will be handling your sale. (?)

Until we have reports of real reports of actual Notarios granting the exemption to Residente Permanentes, it seems reasonable to avoid making personal life decisions, or INM choices, or Aduana vehicle import choices based on unlicensed unregulated real estate agent speculations. ???

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 24, 2013, 6:23 AM)


robt65

Aug 24, 2013, 12:17 PM

Post #30 of 79 (3742 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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As always, it appears that everything depends on each individual state how difficult or easy it is to register and plate an imported car. In Querétaro for example it is not difficult at all, IF your car is not older than 2005 now or 2006 come December 31st of 2014. In San Luis Potosi it is quite simple. All they want is to see a CFE receipt with a local address. They do not want to see your drivers license, or any insurance, or a voters registration card or your curp or any thing else, only that CFE receipt. That by the way is first hand information.

Regards,

Robt65
San Juan del Rio
Querétaro


careyeroslib

Aug 24, 2013, 2:50 PM

Post #31 of 79 (3709 views)

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Re: [robt65] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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A brief follow-up, our car dealer-guy sent us an e-mail that our Jalisco plates arrived yesterday and he sent us a picture with the plates on the vehicle. We picked up the vehicle, and paid in full, on July 18th, and the plates finally arrived on August 23rd. On the other hand, our friends from Chapala bought a new vehicle at the same dealership, and they were able to drive away with plates on the same day as they paid. Not sure why it took so long in our case, but it did.


(This post was edited by careyeroslib on Aug 24, 2013, 2:52 PM)


Sonia Diaz


Aug 24, 2013, 8:10 PM

Post #32 of 79 (3644 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sandy, it might help to understand that "you" don't nationalize the car, so your visa status is immaterial. The nationalization is done in the name of a Mexican citizen (that's why the import brokers require you provide them with an IFE elector's card, or maybe some brokers have a stable of Mexican citizens they can tap for the purpose). After the vehicle has been nationalized, the Mexican "sells" the car to you by signing on the back of the newly issued factura.

Most cars are nationalized in the owner's name and seldom in the name of a Mexican national. The only one's I am aware of being nationalized in the name of a Mexican are J cars through Chihuahua. All the cars we are nationalizing are done in the name of the expat owner with only needing scanned utility bill, Mexican driver's license, visa and title plus 3 photos. The only reason for needing MX driver's license is cars are nationalized virtually and neither owner nor car present at the border. Once one receives their pedimento and factura they present these to local Renta to apply for registration and state plates. This can be done same day in some places or as long as two months as in San Miguel.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sonia/252211011634302


at7mbe


Aug 24, 2013, 9:03 PM

Post #33 of 79 (3622 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Well, that may be how it is with whatever virtual system you are using, but friends here in Michoacan who have nationalized by driving to the border and doing it with Grupo Cuevas in Laredo or with Hermanos Cuevas in Nuevo Laredo have a different story to tell. They were told to bring a copy of the IFE card of a Mexican friend. By faxing or e-mailing the IFE card and other documents four days in advance, they were able to nationalize the day they arrived, albeit a very long day. They left the border with pedimento and factura in hand. Typical cost was around US$1,360, plus $60 for the Mex sticker and another $40 or so for a Safe Conduct permit to drive back.

When I was checking for friends in late July, I called Grupo Cuevas (US # 956-729-7004, Mex # 867-962-1309) and spoke with Ricardo. The documents needed to start the process by e-mail or fax -- his words, not mine -- were:
1. a scanned copy of the title, both sides
2. a scan of a valid Mexican ID -- Mexican passport or IFE elector's card. No problem that the car is titled in the name of an American. You are just borrowing the Mexican's name and ID.
3. a picture of the VIN plate.

This matches the experience of a someone named Bill Taylor on the SMA_Civil list, who posted on August 1, 4:19 pm under "Re: Nationalized US/Canadian vehicles". Parts of his post are excerpted here, emphasis in red is mine:


Quote
I legalized my 2003 Honda pilot at Laredo in January. I used Grupo Cuevas. ... I sent all the required forms to them early so I didn't have to spend 3 or 4 days in Laredo, it takes that long to do the pedameinto[sic]. ... You will need to have the ID (IFE) card photo copy of a Mexican citizen to send to them, not the original, as well as a copy of the original title, a photo of the vin on the drivers side door jam, and a receipt for the deposit to their accounts. You need to take the original title with you to Laredo. ... When you get you[r] paperwork it will be in the name of the Mexican's IFE card that you sent them so use someone you trust. You will then need to go with them up to the office at the old Gigante and transfer the car back to your name.


Seems like there are several different ways to nationalize, and your method differs from what these folks experienced because they decided to physically present their car at the border. How do your fees compare to Grupo Cuevas? For example, they quoted me $1,360 for a 2005 Ford Escape, six cylinder. Could you use that as a reference vehicle so we can have a comparison of what it costs to do it virtually versus a trip to Laredo?

Thanks,
Mark


Sonia Diaz


Aug 25, 2013, 2:57 AM

Post #34 of 79 (3605 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Mark the virtual process is about $500 more but varies and much of the variation is based on what broker charges which can be quite different. Thankfully, no driving and related costs. A friend had to drive to Laredo anyways and yesterday got her pedimento and factura in her name. Before going, what the broker wanted was an utility bill in her name. She did not have one so they settled for a letter from landlord. Others I know who nationalized in Laredo definitely had no IFE and documents in their name. One consistent in Mexico is the inconsistency. :-)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sonia/252211011634302


playaboy

Aug 25, 2013, 4:23 AM

Post #35 of 79 (3598 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

Thank you for that insight. That might seriously impact whether I want to go forward with the Permanent Resident permit. Other than the capital gain issue (which is obviously only relevant if we want to sell which is not consistent with enjoying our place and Mexico), the real goal was to be able to leave a car in Mexico. That seems to be more easily done with the Temporary Resident permit, although I have read the various pros and cons beyond the ability to just leave the car there. If one wants to permanently import a car, can it be done with just a tourist card or do I need either a permanent resident permit or a temporary resident permit? Or can it be done with the Permanent Resident visa which I just received? (as opposed to the Permanent Resident permit that I will only get after completing the permit process). I can't seem to find the answers to those questions.

Thanks again,

Sandy


Don't even think about getting a TIP.

If you love your Jeep, want to keep your Jeep in Mexico full time, then you should permanently import your Jeep, and put Mexican plates on it. Be legal like the permanent resident you are becoming.

It is a NAFTA vehicle and can be imported.

There are vehicle import brokers at most border crossings. Call some brokers in the border area you want to cross, tell them your circumstances and ask for quotes. That is where you will get your answers.


YucaLandia


Aug 25, 2013, 4:45 AM

Post #36 of 79 (3597 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Well, that may be how it is with whatever virtual system you are using, but friends here in Michoacan who have nationalized by driving to the border and doing it with Grupo Cuevas in Laredo or with Hermanos Cuevas in Nuevo Laredo have a different story to tell. They were told to bring a copy of the IFE card of a Mexican friend. ... This matches the experience of a someone named Bill Taylor on the SMA_Civil list, who posted on August 1, 4:19 pm under "Re: Nationalized US/Canadian vehicles". ...

Seems like there are several different ways to nationalize, and your method differs from what these folks experienced because they decided to physically present their car at the border. ...


The same thing is occurring here in Yucatan and Q. Roo, with foreigners permanently importing their foreign plated cars: They are being required to supply copies of a friend's or family member's IFE card. My wife just supplied a copy of her IFE card to aid a friend's import. We assumed it would cause us no problems, because we have no intents import a car within the next 12 months.
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 25, 2013, 4:48 AM)


robt65

Aug 25, 2013, 4:59 AM

Post #37 of 79 (3591 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Hello Mark,

Yours went the same way as the importation of my wife's car went. I had to have her e. mail her IFE Card and I had other I.D>'s. as well but they were unnecessary everything went smoothly and since the day was a bit long I opted to wait an extra day and left early the fourth morning.

Robt65
San Juan del Rio
Querétaro


at7mbe


Aug 25, 2013, 8:29 AM

Post #38 of 79 (3549 views)

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Re: [robt65] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Robert, I haven't imported anything -- I have two more years to go before I have to decide what to do with my Ford Ranger. I'm relating the experience of friends that I've assisted with research. I think Sonia is exactly right, inconsistency is rampant and there are many ways of accomplishing this. Some brokers need IFE cards, and apparently others do not. It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the curtains, but I doubt that will happen. Maybe the oscillations in the system will settle out in two years. Yeah, right...
-- Mark


YucaLandia


Aug 25, 2013, 9:29 AM

Post #39 of 79 (3534 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
Robert, I haven't imported anything --...
I think Sonia is exactly right, inconsistency is rampant and there are many ways of accomplishing this.
... It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the curtains, but I doubt that will happen. Maybe the oscillations in the system will settle out in two years. Yeah, right...
-- Mark


"It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the curtains, "

My vote for Best Laugh of the Day !

Hilarious imagery,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


Anonimo

Aug 25, 2013, 9:31 AM

Post #40 of 79 (3527 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Quote
Some brokers need IFE cards, and apparently others do not. It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the curtains


Some things are best left unknown.



Saludos,
Anonimo


sandyr

Aug 25, 2013, 12:01 PM

Post #41 of 79 (3495 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Thanks Playaboy for the suggestion. I plan to eventually import it but since there seems to be so many inconsistencies with the process of doing that, I thought it might be more conservative (and maybe even necessary) to wait until I have a permanent resident card. Currently I have the permanent resident VISA we will use to enter Mexico to finalize getting the card. I'm not sure I should try and import the Jeep with only the visa and without the card or potentially other forms of documentation I would need such as a friend or relative's IFE card. For this next trip to Mexico, I think I will have my wife obtain a temporary resident card so we have maximum flexibility in the short run. We have always driven and we think we want that option in the future even if we do permanently import the Jeep at some time. My wife also has a permanent resident visa (we both got them from the Denver consulate at the same time just a few days ago) and I was wondering if anyone knows if she can use that PERMANENT visa to cross the border and then obtain a TEMPORARY resident card (instead of the permanent resident card she applied for) when we go to finish the process. Otherwise, it's another trip to Denver to cancel her application and then apply for a temporary resident visa to eventually obtain the temporary resident card. By having her have a temporary resident card, we can temporarily import the vehicle we are driving and continue driving it until we drive back after enjoying Mexico while we obtain our resident cards (one permanent for me, one temporary for her). Then maybe on another visit we will try and permanently import the Jeep. Whoaaa: kind of anal being so careful to distinguish between a temporary/permanent visa and a temporary/permanent card but that appears to be necessary to fully understand some of these issues.

I had a number of questions that many people graciously responded to. Not all the answers seem to be consistent (lots of opinions and possibly motivations out there), so it makes it difficult. I certainly am interested in hearing about other people's experience with import brokers and specifically those located at Nogales. We do not speak Spanish well at this time so it would be helpful if the broker had English skills. It appears to do it completely legal, it takes at least a few days to go through the process (both exporting and then importing). On the other hand, I doubt if we would ever return the Jeep to the USA, so maybe there are brokers on the border that can do the process in one day without the legalities of exporting the vehicle. Of course, what are other negative consequences of taking short cuts (like not properly exporting the vehicle)? Some folks on this site say there is a list of auto brokers but so far I have only found one for Nogales (and that broker comes highly recommended). Any links to recommended brokers? When I import the Jeep, I am inclined to want to do it at the Nogales crossing since it's a straight shot down relatively safe Mex 15 to the Bay of Banderas (Bucerias / P.V.). I'm hesitant to use Laredo or other Texas border crossings farther east since one then has to drive through areas of Mexico that are notoriously bad for the Narco problems. Of course, that's my sense but I don't want to start a discussion of the relative dangers of various border crossings at this time or on this thread.

Thanks in advance for your responses (if any) related to my post.

Sandy


sandyr

Aug 25, 2013, 12:25 PM

Post #42 of 79 (3493 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Mark,

Thanks for your response. I think you make some very good points and some of them have convinced me to wait until I learn more before I permanently import our Jeep. Maybe I will obtain a Mexican driver's license before I do that. In the mean time, either my wife or I will go forward with the process we started to obtain a permanent resident's card while the other will modify our plans and instead get a temporary resident card. That way we have the most flexibility and can still leave a vehicle in Mexico for more than 180 days if we want to. Obviously, when we cross the border to finalize obtaining our cards, we need to make sure the car is imported by the person that plans to get the temporary card. One question I'm looking for an answer for is whether one can obtain a temporary card with the special permanent visa or whether we need to start from scratch with the temporary resident card process. It's not that big of deal, but it would make it easier if we didn't have to drive 75 miles each way to Denver to start the process over again. On the other hand, it would not be good to go all the way to Mexico and find out we can't get a temporary card with a permanent visa. Hopefully the consulate will know the answer.

Thanks again,

Sandy


(This post was edited by sandyr on Aug 25, 2013, 12:26 PM)


sandyr

Aug 25, 2013, 12:52 PM

Post #43 of 79 (3480 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sonia,

Thanks for the information. From what I have read, you are experienced with the importing process (without checking, maybe I'm confusing you with someone else on another thread). Are you suggesting that I should be able to import my NAFTA qualified Jeep GC at the Nogales border using a broker on our next trip down when my wife and I only have special Visas ("permanent" for one of us and probably "temporary" for the other), no driver's license, obviously no temporary or permanent resident cards, and no IFE card or way to get one. We have utility bills for the condo we have in trust in Bucerias, Nayarit. If so, will the process take one day or multiple days (i.e., will they impound the vehicle because obviously one has to plan ahead for that situation). Beside my wife, we also have our Golden Retriever which makes delays more complicated. Do you have a list of reputable brokers for the Nogales border crossing(s) or a link to lists on internet sites? If you've read some of my other recent posts, I am hesitant to permanently import it until we have our residency cards and maybe I a Mexican driver's license. In your opinion, is that being too cautious? If I could import it on this trip this fall it would possibly save us a lot of future driving (returning the temporary imported vehicle all the way to Colorado and then driving back down to do the permanent import).

Thanks,

Sandy


sandyr

Aug 25, 2013, 1:20 PM

Post #44 of 79 (3472 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Careyeroslib,

Thanks for the input. We like to drive and have a car while in Mexico (mostly Bay of Banderas area). Our experience has not been too bad with getting pulled over and when we have been pulled over it's never been the Federales, but instead local police. However, I'm pretty sure the local police have picked on us because of the foreign plates. There are certainly additional negatives with having a temporary imported vehicle so I am more inclined to eventually import our older Jeep GC in the long run. I'm just not sure I'm in a position to do it the next time we go down to finalize our residency cards. I think I've decided that either myself or my wife will continue with the Permanent Card process and the other will try and get a Temporary Card. That way we can still cross the border with a vehicle if we needed to or wanted to drive. I'm not real concerned with the issue you pointed out of having to renew by starting over with the process for a Temporary Card in the future.

Thanks for the information on getting your plates in Jalisco, however, our condo is in Bucerias, Nayarit and therefore I assume we would get a car licensed in the state of Nayarit. Do you have any information as to how easy it is to get plates in Nayarit? As to buying a Mexican plated car, my personal preference is to drive a vehicle for which I know all the related history. I have a Jeep GC that I purchased new in 1998 and maintained. I know it has not been in any accidents. I just need to visit the local dealer for the recall related to Jeeps catching fire when rear ended. Ha,ha, but that does concern me a little bit.

Sincerely,

Sandy


at7mbe


Aug 25, 2013, 1:25 PM

Post #45 of 79 (3468 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Hi Sandy,

I think you've gotten a good handle on the issues as evidenced by your precise use of terms like "visa" and "card." Many folks call the RP or RT card in their wallet a visa, which it is not.

We used to live 150 miles from Denver, but applied prior to the law change, so just got No Inmigrante and didn't have any car issues, since we were allowed a TIP. When we needed to replace a car, we just purchased a Mexican car with Mexican plates. In the end, it's much simpler and doesn't attract the attention of Federales on the highway. We even have driven the car in the US, but that will be the subject of another post -- what I learned about insurance driving a Mex plated car in Colorado.

There are so many advantages to having RP, notably never having to deal with INM again except for address changes, that it seems a shame to give one of them up for an RT, all for the sake of an old Jeep.

Oscar Angulo in Nogales seems to get high marks on this forum as a reliable import broker. Why not call or e-mail him and explain the situation, since he speaks English (ancomercial@hotmail.com)? He can tell you whether he needs an IFE card and whether he can do the import while you have only the RP visa in your US passport.

As for exporting your vehicle before importing, that's what Robt65 on this forum did, and he reported the process in Laredo in detail elsewhere. No one else I know did the export side, and in fact retained their US plates and title. That gives them options if they want to drive in the US -- either get comp and liability on a Mex plated vehicle, as I did, or put their US plates back on at the border and purchase comp and liability from a US company. But in all my calls checking, no US company sells comprehensive, collision and theft on a Mex-plated vehicle; only National Unity in Texas sells liability. Again, I need to document all that in a separate post, because it's getting far afield from your situation.

Another alternative could be to fly to PV with your freshly minted RP visas, start the application process for the RP card, and just get settled instead of trying to do everything, including vehicle importation, in one fell swoop. You'd have to rely on public transportation or rent a car, but that still might be easier and ultimately less expensive than giving up an RP for an RT. Once you've sorted things out and found the broker you want to deal with, then you can fly back and drive the Jeep down.

Good luck sorting it out.
Mark


sandyr

Aug 25, 2013, 2:02 PM

Post #46 of 79 (3461 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Mark,

I really appreciate the input. I agree there are benefits to the RP over the RT except for one major point: the inability to temporarily import a vehicle after you get the RP. That means we can't drive to Mexico even if we want to. My wife's mother lives in the Phoenix area so it's nice that we can stop and see her and spend a few days on the way. It's certainly a long drive through Mexico on Mex 15, but sometimes we enjoy the things we get to see. On the other hand, she's getting older and might not be returning there for long (she's a snow bird) so that reason for driving will possibly be going away. Then it will be a really long drive from Colorado.

Oscar was the name I have seen that comes highly recommended. I'm glad to hear he speaks English and I probably will contact him to see what he can tell me.

When we drive to Mexico and temporarily import the vehicle, we have always gotten our insurance through a Sanborn agency in Tucson. I've noticed that Sanborn's is an agency representing a Mexican based insurance company. Like you, I am not aware of an American auto insurance company that will extend their insurance coverage to driving in Mexico. I think I understand you're saying that one has to obtain insurance for driving in Mexico through a Mexican based insurance company. I think that applies whether it's a temporary or permanent import. Let me know if I'm not understanding your point.

Thanks again for the feedback! Lots of things to consider.

Sandy


at7mbe


Aug 25, 2013, 3:43 PM

Post #47 of 79 (3436 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sandy, I wasn't referring to insurance in Mexico on a foreign-plated vehicle. I was speaking about insurance in the US when driving a Mexican-plated vehicle north of the border. If you import the Jeep, you will register it in Nayarit with Mexican plates. Unless you want to bring down another foreign-plated vehicle, all your needs for an RT evaporate at that point. If you want to drive your Nayarit-plated vehicle to Phoenix or Colorado, that's when you have to figure out the US insurance for it, just as I did for my Mexican-plated vehicle. It's doable, and eventually I'll find time to post the details.

If you go through the official, 3-day export process, as Robt65 did, your US title is canceled and all US state DMVs are notified that the VIN is no longer a US vehicle. Basically, that's the same as me buying a Mexican vehicle with Mexican plates. You (and I) can still drive the vehicle in the US, but you have to buy liability insurance at a minimum. It's the flip-side of driving a US vehicle into Mexico. Companies like www.segurogringo.com will accommodate you, selling you a short-term policy from National Unity insurance of Texas.

If you don't do the export, but merely the import, then you have two sets of plates -- US and Mexican, and two titles. Kosher? Maybe not. But lots of folks do not do the export step. A friend just imported his US vehicle by driving to Nuevo Laredo and using a broker there. The vehicle never crossed into the US, and therefore was most certainly not exported. But he never plans to drive it in the US again. Your US insurance company and state DMV don't know about the Mexican title (factura), so you can drive to Nogales or Nuevo Laredo, find a shady tree to park under and switch plates. (Provided you renewed your Colorado registration each year, and to comply with Colorado law, maintained minimal US insurance even though the car isn't even in the country. I keep $1000 comprehensive and no liability on a Colorado-plated truck when it's in Mexico, and have State Farm put the normal coverage on for the time it is NOTB.)

If you don't export the vehicle -- and that three day wait on the US side is a pain -- here's what you DO NOT want to do: You do not want to drive it NOTB with Mexican plates. Your US VIN, Colorado plates and registration remain active in the various DMV systems, and if you get pulled over or are in an accident and they run the VIN, your US car with Mexican plates is going to look like a stolen vehicle. There's going to be a whole lot of 'splaining to do. Hence the joy and simplicity of just putting your US plates back on at the border going north, and your Mexican plates back on going south.

I don't have that option with the new vehicle we purchased here. It's a Mexican vehicle through and through, with no US ties or old US plates, so its VIN does not appear in any US computer system. And our US-plated truck has no Mexican ties -- it's here with Colorado plates on a TIP (remember, I'm still RT). Both are clean in either country's computers. It's with imported and nationalized vehicles where you need to think through the consequences of being able to drive the vehicle in both countries. It that case, I think it comes down to:

1. Do the export, toss your US plates, get National Unity insurance when driving north, or
2. Don't do the export, have two sets of plates, and use each in the appropriate country. Keep your US registration and insurance alive, if minimally, or
3. Don't do the export, and don't drive the vehicle back to the US.

Clear as mud, eh?

Mark


sanmiguelfemale

Aug 25, 2013, 10:05 PM

Post #48 of 79 (3387 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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In Reply To
Mark the virtual process is about $500 more but varies and much of the variation is based on what broker charges which can be quite different. Thankfully, no driving and related costs. A friend had to drive to Laredo anyways and yesterday got her pedimento and factura in her name. Before going, what the broker wanted was an utility bill in her name. She did not have one so they settled for a letter from landlord. Others I know who nationalized in Laredo definitely had no IFE and documents in their name. One consistent in Mexico is the inconsistency. :-)
- - -
[Section deleted by TB as (a) quoted from another webboard, and (b) IMV not being germane to the discussion]
- - -
I understand 30 days is the max time to nationalize or remove a foreign plated car owned by a permanent residente. Others can correct me if I'm wrong here, but on consulate and legal sites it clearly states you can't have it both ways ,ie keep a car here for 180 days while also having PR status. I am referring friends to Spencer McMullen's take on this as he shared on Chapala.com. The consequences of what you suggest can be dire indeed (see below) and much more than losing a deposit from the sounds of this. "The only people that should enter Mexico as tourists (and my words, apply for a 180 TIP) are those who want to leave in 180 days. Immigration is checking and cross referencing and the law states
that if you enter or exit as a tourist then you will have your temporal or permanente canceled.

Why would people who have one of these documents risk losing everything including all the time and money spent?

Some commons reasons:
Ignorance about having to show their travel letter (or needing one when traveling while papers in process).
Being too cheap to pay for a travel letter
Not showing their visa sticker from the consulate in their passport upon arriving in Mexico.
Having an ignorant immigration agent who thinks all foreigners are tourists and who tells you to sort out any problems at immigration

NEVER leave the immigration counter if you were given a tourist visa and you are not a tourist, they will try to get rid of you but once you leave then you are stuck and risk losing everything. If your FMM form says 180 days then they marked you as a tourist. If you get a visa from a consulate and enter Mexico your FMM form will give you 30 days. Once you leave they will assume that you did wrong, not them and they will cancel your document.

People with travel letters need to get both entry and exit stamps on the travel letter, show it at all times and do not let them take it.

People whose document expired while outside Mexico may enter within 55 days of expiration and MUST show their expired document and not get a tourist card then apply for renewal within 5 days.

A new trick is to call people into immigration and deny them the right to an attorney or translator and then trick them into confessing that they entered wrong and have them sign a form all in Spanish, demand your right to an attorney or translator and NEVER accept blame for mistakes done by immigration.



(This post was edited by tonyburton on Aug 26, 2013, 7:38 AM)


Sonia Diaz


Aug 26, 2013, 4:27 AM

Post #49 of 79 (3355 views)

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Re: [Sonia Diaz] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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[Section deleted by TB as not being germane to the discussion]

6. What Spencer, yes a friend is discussing is those who have a visa but do not show it when entering Mexico and obtain only a FMM. One reason is they avoid getting travel letter while visa is in process. When a visa holder exits Mexico it is normal to complete a FMM. Upon returning the part they retained is handed in. In no way was Sencer saying to not complete an FMM, only that to do so when showing your visa and how to complete the FMM.

7. Yes, Aduana is issuing both 30 day TIPs to some with preapproved PR visas and 180 to others. These I have seen. Last Thursday, in Celaya, SAT staff including supervisor would not issue a Resturno Seguro to a client who now has just received her PR visa and has a 180 day TIP. My client talked to them at length and also had me talk to them on her phone. They are adamant car is legal in this situation. Her TIP is dated early December. SAT staff also gave her their phone number should she have any problem when driving out of Mexico. Her trip was this past Saturday and is now in Laredo. Yes her deposit was refunded!!!

8. The unfortunate part is people are obtaining a PR preapproval at a consulate and not told about the car issue. Once in the country they discover the problem and what a horrible one it is. Imagine if you just bought a car to have in Mexico. Thankfully, in some instances they have 180 days to resolve it unknown to most every body including myself until Thursday.

9. All cars are nationalized through a broker be it if done at Guadalajara airport, virtually or at the border. The broker is at the border in every case. The ones done virtually have come back slowly but legal and on the Aduana web site.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sonia/252211011634302

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Aug 26, 2013, 7:39 AM)


playaboy

Aug 26, 2013, 6:17 AM

Post #50 of 79 (3337 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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If you want a definitive answers to your questions CALL A BROKER. What you are finding here on message forums is hearsay, except Robt65. The only way to import a car into Mexico is thru a customs broker. You might use a facilitator to help you but they MUST use a broker. The process is fairly simple and straight forward. It hasn't changed in at least a decade. I have heard good reports about Oscar in Nogales. CALL HIM.

There are 2 countries laws you should comply with. If you don't care about breaking USA laws than don't legally export your car. It can be done and you probably will not get caught (unless you bring the car back to the USA).

There is no good reasons to come into Mexico as an approved permanente and get a TIP. Quit being so, your words, conservative. No offense, but what you are asking and trying to do sounds a little backwards.

CALL A BROKER AND ASK YOUR QUESTIONS. They will tell you how it can be accomplished with your visa status.

If you and the wife have been approved for Permanente visas then I wouldn't let an old Jeep get in the way. Just import it. Then you will be done with INM and Aduana forever.


Sculptari

Aug 26, 2013, 7:22 AM

Post #51 of 79 (3690 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Uhh Playaboy- hate to break it to you but Oscar is not a broker, he is a facilitator. Not that I would have a problem with that, just saying.
no longer active on Mexconnect


YucaLandia


Aug 26, 2013, 7:51 AM

Post #52 of 79 (3673 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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playaboy,
Re Sandy's personal situation where they don't want to permanently import the car on this trip: What's your take on the idea of applying for a temporary import permit (TIP) online before coming to Mexico, paired with the same trip for getting your Consulate-qualified Residente Permanente (PR) application finished at a local INM office.

The online Aduana/Banjercito system has been issuing 180 day TIPs, which gives Sandy 6 months to finish of the Residente Permanente approvals at INM - and plenty of time to take the TIP car out of Mexico and get her deposit back. Then permanently import the car when they are ready to?
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 9:10 AM

Post #53 of 79 (3643 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Mark,
That was very clear and very well written. Thanks again. I do have another question that I asked before but I don't think I understood the answer. Can one permanently import a vehicle into Mexico with just a tourist card? I think your original answer was permanently importing a vehicle is unrelated to the type of permit or visa one has. So maybe I just answered the question, but I want to confirm this understanding. Quite frankly, if the answer is one can permanently import a vehicle with a tourist card and also license it in the state of Nayarit, I'm not sure I have a really good reason for obtaining a permanent resident or temp resident permit. We only plan to spend a 4 to 8 weeks at our condo in the fall and the same in the spring. I will do some additional research into the pros and cons of having a tourist card, perm resident card or temp resident card, but my main motivation is to be able to keep a vehicle full time at our condo.


(This post was edited by sandyr on Aug 26, 2013, 9:23 AM)


YucaLandia


Aug 26, 2013, 9:18 AM

Post #54 of 79 (3639 views)

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Re: [sandyr]vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Yes, you can use a Visitante INM permit to temporarily import a car. The car permit is given the same expiration date as the visitor's permit. Temporarily imported cars cannot be registered or get license plates in any states.

Why go Residente Permanente? Some people want Residente Permanente permits as a key step towards citizenship, others like getting a single permit and a one-time payment, others want to be able to easily work or earn income while in Mexico, ...?

I am a little confused by one statement you wrote:
"...but my main motivation is to be able to keep a vehicle full time at our condo. ..."

Does "full time" mean year-round? I suspect that the Visitante permit with temporary car permits, fits your needs of having your vehicle with you during the full time you are here in Mexico, and then drive it out every 6 months?
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 26, 2013, 9:28 AM)


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 9:27 AM

Post #55 of 79 (3631 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

I apologize for not making myself clear and just edited my previous post to reflect what I meant to ask. What I meant to say is can one PERMANENTLY import a vehicle into Mexico with just a tourist card. If not, then what about with a temp resident card?

Thanks,
Sandy


(This post was edited by sandyr on Aug 26, 2013, 10:27 AM)


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 9:34 AM

Post #56 of 79 (3629 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Ok. Oscar is a facilitator and not a broker? What is the difference between a facilitator and a broker? I have other questions related to this point, but maybe I should start with just that last one. If there is an answer somewhere else on the boards, do you have the link? I hate to waste people's time (although you'd never know it from all the questions I have).

Thanks,
Sandy


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 9:49 AM

Post #57 of 79 (3618 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

Appreciate the response. Just to be clear: I have not decided whether to permanently import the car in our upcoming trip or not. In fact, most things have not yet been decided. The only thing I have actually done so far is visit the Denver consulate and obtain a permanent resident visa for both myself and my wife. What steps I take next depend on my understanding of the ramifications of my actions. Heck, if I find out I can permanently import my Jeep with a tourist card, maybe I would go that direction. In which case I would contact the consulate and cancel the visa. I'm just not sure. I'm investigating Oscar to import my vehicle, but what are the consequences of him being a facilitator versus a broker? Will there be a 3 day wait? Is it really against the law to not export the vehicle from the US while at the same time I import it into Mexico? Does that really matter if the vehicle is staying in Mexico?


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 10:23 AM

Post #58 of 79 (3608 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Playaboy,

I understand what you are saying but I am sitting here in Colorado and I don't have a reliable list of brokers at the Nogales border crossing or a way to vet them. Oscar seems to come highly recommended and I sent him an email with questions. Only today I learn on this thread that he is probably a facilitator and not a broker and I don't even know what the difference is and the related ramifications. Another opportunity for some research.

Are you sure one is "breaking USA law" by not officially exporting the vehicle before importing it into Mexico? It seems reasonable to me that as long as one is not doing it for a business (as in being an auto exporter for profit), it might not actually be against the law to import a vehicle into Mexico without exporting it from the USA. I think it's possible that a vehicle could be recognized by both countries differently (as Mark explained in his post). Mexico sees it as a nationalized vehicle and the USA sees it as they did when I drove it in Colorado. Why would the USA care if the vehicle is recognized by Mexico? Anyway, I would not drive it back to the USA after permanently importing it into Mexico. I would have no reason to do that and therefore I don't see a reason to worry about exporting it. However, a multi-day wait at the border would be a serious inconvenience.

Actually, I can see many scenarios where I might want to drive a vehicle I own in the USA into Mexico even though I have one permanently imported sitting in Nayarit. I am hesitant to give up that flexibility by having both my wife and I become permanent residents. If I had known about the inability to drive a TIP vehicle by permanent resident permit holders, I probably would have thought more about starting the permanent resident application at the consulate. As it is, I still might try and cancel it (depending on my understanding of all the issues here).

Thanks again for your input. Hopefully I will be able to understand the difference between a facilitator and a broker and what that means. Can you tell me, can one import a vehicle into Mexico with only a tourist card? Finally, I am waiting for a response from Oscar and will call him if necessary (as opposed to email).


at7mbe


Aug 26, 2013, 10:51 AM

Post #59 of 79 (3590 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Sorry Sandy, I have no information on permanently importing a vehicle on a Visitante permit, and don't believe I ever said anything about that. I think the advice to talk to a knowledgeable importer or facilitator, and probably more than one, should be heeded. Even though you will not cross at Laredo, you could call the Grupo Cuevas folks. I spoke with Ricardo, but a friend just spoke with Ramon and described him as having excellent English. So either of them might be able to tell you what the situation would be. But again, remember that the work doesn't end with importing; you still have to get Mexican plates. In Michoacan, which is requiring a Mexican driver's license of foreigners, that could be a deal breaker, because I can't see how to get a license here as a Visitante. They required a CURP number to issue my and my wife's driver's licenses, and Visitantes don't have one.

Many folks are pulling out the hair because they can't qualify financially for RT, let alone RP. You both have met the RP threshold, and yet now you're considering throwing it away because of a Jeep? I respectfully suggest you think long and hard before you unwind all the work you've done.

Life would be much simpler if you were to just purchase a Mexican vehicle in Mexico, and stick with your RPs. A friend here was successful with this technique: whenever he or his wife were in parking lots, they put notes on the windshields of nice looking cars they were interested in, asking if the owner would consider selling. They got a return call from a lawyer with a three-year old, very clean Nissan X-Trail. It had been dealer serviced, and they reviewed all the service records at the Nissan dealer. Convinced that the car was sound, they purchased it. That was four years ago, and they have been happy with the car ever since. So there's a middle ground between buying new and buying a beater of unknown provenance.

Mark


YucaLandia


Aug 26, 2013, 11:12 AM

Post #60 of 79 (3584 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Good facilitators are helpful intermediaries who know the Spanish, English and "the ropes", using their experience and multilingual abilities to find US customers good customs brokers. The brokers are formally licensed by Aduana to handle imports.
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

Post #61 of 79 (3576 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

Sorry for the confusion. By "full time", I mean we want to possibly keep the vehicle there "year-round". The visitante permit (I assume the same as a tourist card?) doesn't meet our needs with a temporary vehicle import permit because we want to potentially leave the vehicle over 180 days. For example: drive to Mex Oct 1, fly home Dec 15, fly back to Mex April 1, drive back home May 15. The car would be there from Oct 1 until May 15, which is over 180 days. Furthermore, maybe I don't want to drive at all but leave the vehicle there year-round.

On the other hand: can one permanently import a vehicle and be on a tourist card?


YucaLandia


Aug 26, 2013, 11:59 AM

Post #62 of 79 (3570 views)

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Re: [sandyr] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Hi Sandy,
There are no tourist cards. The equivalent INM permit type has been Visitante since Nov. 2012.

Ironically, Visitantes can buy cars inside Mexico, but in many/most/all(?) Mexican states do not allow Visitors/Tourists to register or license a Mexican car. So, Visitante seem to not fit your desire to have or leave a car here year-round.

This stuff seems simple at first glance, but if we don't know the details of the rules, and how the various laws have not been harmonized, it can get messy when we actually have to make the move. I appreciate your patience with me poking at your descriptions of your plans and intentions - re the "full time". I also really like Mark's multiple descriptions of how these things work.

It would be GREAT if we could frame our questions and issues into just 1 or 2 sentences, and even better if the answers could be covered by just 1 or 2 sentences. Mark and playaboy are good communicators, but even their posts get BIG (like Robt65's and mine) when dealing with these interwoven issues dealing with 2 different Mexican Gob. agencies and multiple US govt. agencies. *grin*

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 26, 2013, 12:12 PM)


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 12:06 PM

Post #63 of 79 (3562 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Mark,

Thanks again. You've been extremely generous with your time as others have in providing answers to my questions.

Do you have a link to a thread where people talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the tourist card versus the resident permits? We love Mexico, but we will probably not be living there full time. We spend 4 to 6 weeks there in the fall and 4 to 6 weeks there in the late spring (after ski season). What are the advantages of the resident temp and resident perm cards except how it relates to leaving a car there? At one point I thought one could avoid capital gains on the sale of a home with a resident perm card, but apparently that advantage is difficult if not impossible to get without becoming a naturalized citizen. I'm not worried about financing anything. Going through customs a couple of times a year might be quicker with a resident card, but that's not a big deal to me. If you have the time, I need to understand what the advantages are?


careyeroslib

Aug 26, 2013, 12:08 PM

Post #64 of 79 (3558 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Hey Sandy: You sound like a really thorough person in terms of researching this. I TOTALLY understand your feelings about importing your 1998 vehicle. We have had the same feelings about our 1995. Well-maintained, know where it has been. I so wish we could/could have imported it. (It´s currently parked in Vallarta).

I can´t really help you with knowing how easy or hard it is to obtain plates in Nayarit if you have other plates. All I know is no one seemed to speak English in the office near San Vincente, maybe they do.. There is a poster on this Board from Bucerias who might be able to help you. I´ll send you a PM just in the off-chance you don´t know to whom I am referring.

With respect to your question about changing from Permanente to Temporal within Mexico, I wouldn´t count on it. It is my understanding that you have to cancel your current Residency and then return to your consulate to start all over from square one.

Keep in mind my advice to consider buying a Mexican-plated vehicle because we went through the same agony between February and July when we finally decided it was the easier way overall.. They now have certified used vehicles in Mexico. Ours was previously owned by a local Nayarit business. It had gone a whopping 13,400 km. I would not have bought a used vehicle from anyone but a dealer.

Good luck, from someone who has been there.


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 12:29 PM

Post #65 of 79 (3549 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Steve,

I guess I thought the Visitante was a class of visa and therefore not something Americans actually got. I thought Americans only needed a 'tourist card" which I understood was the nick name for the FMM entry/exit form. But you're saying the Visitante is not a visa but the normal permit for tourists from the USA? Is it inappropriate to refer to the FMM as a tourist card? I'm trying to document this stuff in my Microsoft Notes programs so I get it right in the future.

Thank you so much for that information on the visitante and licensing a car. It looks like making things simple with a Visitante is not possible since I want to keep a vehicle there more than 180 days. I really do appreciate the explanations. I have learned a lot from everyone on this thread, especially because you are all so willing to explain the detail. I usually have no problem with detail once I sort it all out.


YucaLandia


Aug 26, 2013, 12:35 PM

Post #66 of 79 (3543 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Visitors versus Temporary versus Permanent INM permits

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Why go Residente Temporal? Some people want their Temporary Import Permit foreign plated cars (TIP cars), others want to be able to work (but that eliminates having a TIP car), some people prefer to not have to take their TIP car out of Mexico every 6 months, and they can open bank accounts, plus the minimum requirements for getting Residente Temporal is are lower than Permanente. Downsides? Residente Temporal has the highest costs per year of any of the permits. Residente Temporal requires the person to come back to Mexico to make annual renewals withing the 30 day window before the expiration date. Residente Temporal requires the person to leave Mexico every 4 years and start the process all over again at a Mexican Consulate. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Why go Residente Permanente? Some people want Residente Permanente permits as a key step towards citizenship, others like getting a single permit and a one-time payment, and others want to be able to easily work or earn income while in Mexico. Residente Permanentes basically have all the privileges of citizenship, but: you cannot vote, cannot participate in anything resembling "political activities", and there are certain jobs you cannot hold.

Why go Visitante? Lower fees than all other common INM permit types, no application minimum income requirements and no address and no comprabantes needed. Disadvantages: they require the holder to leave Mexico at least once every 6 months. There are big restrictions on working or earning income here. They require a trip to a bank every time to pay the fee. Likely cannot register or license a car in most Mexican states - which means you have to bring your own car or rent one. Bringing in a TIP car ties up $300 or $400 every time you renew. Visitantes also are limited in the kinds of bank accounts they can open in Mexico. Only 2 banks allow Visitantes to open accounts: Banamex and Bancomer(?) at last count. Having no bank account can present some hassles.

Again these are the things that I can think of at this moment - other folks can likely describe some more.
Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 26, 2013, 12:39 PM)


Sculptari

Aug 26, 2013, 12:51 PM

Post #67 of 79 (3531 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Some practical advice - keeping a vehicle for a year, and only using it for a couple of months is very hard on the vehicle, especially near the coast. It takes a mechanic to do it properly. That image of old cars up on blocks in the driveway is actually the proper way. The tires rot and take on a permanent dent and the seals/mountings on the suspension fail. The sun is brutal on paint and plastic body parts. Insects and plants can find their way in the tiniest holes.

Also, don't worry about capital gains. You are taxed on the difference on what you paid, versus what you sold it for. Right now in Chapala, Vallarta and the Riviera Nayarit prices are still dropping, and will do so, or at best be steady, for a long time to come. The prices are a half, or a third, of what they were 5 or 6 years ago. If a house actually sells here, it is big news around the bars and coffee shops. The mood, among foreigners at least, is that the party is over - time to head home, or the next "Now!" destination. Often with the terrible hangover of leaving with less money than when they first came. That is good news though for the people who did not move to Mexico to party, but have been attracted by Mexico's people, culture and natural wonders.

A Facilitator uses a Customs Broker, preparing all the documents, usually getting a 'wholesale' price. A Customs Broker is licensed and if they are of any consequence, are bonded. Many of them are lawyers. Most of them would consider importing a single vehicle as a waste of their time (the government dictates how much they can charge for auto importation) and there are just too many things which can go wrong - like hidden drugs in the car, which would cause their bond to be frozen until the investigation is over. With their bond frozen, they would be out of business in one day.

In other legal matters a Lawyer uses a Notario in the same way, buying services at 'wholesale' and they charge a lot less per hour on legal work than a Notary.

Anyways - welcome to our world!
no longer active on Mexconnect


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 12:57 PM

Post #68 of 79 (3526 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Visitors versus Temporary versus Permanent INM permits

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Mark feels there are advantages to the resident permits over the Visitante. Steve, I see you've listed some of them but I think all of your points can be categorized into the following buckets:

1. working in Mexico (which I'm not concerned with)
2. path to citizenship (which I'm not concerned with)
3. financial related such as opening bank accounts or getting loans (which I'm not concerned with- we simply withdraw money from ATMs to get by)
4. keeping a car in Mexico (which is my primary motivation)
5. ease of administering and the costs of the actual permit (which obviously impacts me)

If Mark reads this post, maybe he has additional reasons that I might find relevant. Anyway, I guess my point is that the issue of the permits for me boils down to what are the advantages related to keeping a car in Mexico and how do they relate to each other in terms of ease and cost.


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 1:23 PM

Post #69 of 79 (3516 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Those are some very good points related to keeping a car in Mexico, especially around the Bay of Banderas. Lot's of humidity and weather there to negatively impact a vehicles sitting around. On the other hand, we really like the flexibility of having a car there. We're tired of driving from Colorado to Bucerias round trip twice a year. The Jeep I want to import is old (98) and not worth much to most people but I know has been relatively reliable and is worth more to me. The motor was replaced at 100K miles and only has 90K miles on it. It's not rusting yet but probably will sitting around there but that's OK. That does bring up a point about having it on a 4 year temporary import permit (to correspond with a 4 year temp resident permit). If it gets to the point where it is not reliable, I wouldn't want to drive it back to the border. Then I would have to go to the hassle of reporting a disabled temporary import vehicle. No fun.

In terms of capital gains, we will have a lot if and when we sell. For one thing, it being Mexico, the tax basis is much lower than what we paid for it new. I don't want to go into it, but even if we were to sell the condo for what we paid for it, we would be paying a big capital gains. Furthermore, our place has appreciated at least 50% over what we originally paid. That's based on recent sales of units in our complex although it is less than the high. But I realize there isn't much one can do to avoid the taxes- at least not through the type of residency permit one has.


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 1:34 PM

Post #70 of 79 (3511 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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I would appreciate asking someone who knows about the issues related to licensing a car in Nayarit.

Thanks for the input on trying to obtain a Temporal with a Permanente visa. I will probably check with the consulate to see what they say.

In terms of buying a vehicle in Mexico, I heard they are expensive for what you got- whether old or new. I think having a vehicle sitting around most of the time will be very hard on it. That's why I'm looking into importing my worthless but reliable Jeep- I will only lose what it costs for me to import it and I know it's actually in decent shape.


Sculptari

Aug 26, 2013, 1:41 PM

Post #71 of 79 (3508 views)

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Re: [sandyr] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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I believe there is someone in Mezcales who rents reliable used cars, for a decent monthly rate. Unfortunately I do not know the details but I know the trick is to be very careful with the insurance details.

If you brought in the Jeep, and it became unreliable, you would have no problem selling it in Mexico. There is special paperwork involved where the buyer agrees to take on all responsibilities, and it is duly registered with a government office. That VIN number will now be in the buyers name. The only trouble is that it would now be a problem for the new owner to figure out - and they do, there are millions of these vehicles in Mexico. The downside, selling it as 'chocolate', with no plates, means you would get about half the value than if it was Mexican plated.

Jeeps are very good down here, body work to prevent and control rust is very cheap, used parts are abundant. The only thing I would bring down is what is called a 'loom' - this is new set of color coded wiring made specifically for your vehicle. A lot of older Jeeps have minor electric problems, especially if they have gotten wet. Big, off road tire are also expensive in Mexico.
no longer active on Mexconnect


salto_jorge

Aug 26, 2013, 6:00 PM

Post #72 of 79 (3428 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Same here in GDL/Zapopan. I have seen home on the market for over 2 years. What capital gains !

When it comes to having a vehicle in Mexico that is the main reason the consulate suggested I get a residente temporal even though the wife is a national.



In Reply To


Also, don't worry about capital gains. You are taxed on the difference on what you paid, versus what you sold it for. Right now in Chapala, Vallarta and the Riviera Nayarit prices are still dropping, and will do so, or at best be steady, for a long time to come. The prices are a half, or a third, of what they were 5 or 6 years ago. If a house actually sells here, it is big news around the bars and coffee shops. The mood, among foreigners at least, is that the party is over - time to head home, or the next "Now!" destination. Often with the terrible hangover of leaving with less money than when they first came. That is good news though for the people who did not move to Mexico to party, but have been attracted by Mexico's people, culture and natural wonders.



(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Aug 26, 2013, 6:14 PM)


tashby


Aug 26, 2013, 7:03 PM

Post #73 of 79 (3411 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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*deleted*


(This post was edited by tashby on Aug 26, 2013, 7:05 PM)


at7mbe


Aug 26, 2013, 7:03 PM

Post #74 of 79 (3410 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Quote
This stuff seems simple at first glance, but if we don't know the details of the rules, and how the various laws have not been harmonized, it can get messy when we actually have to make the move.


OK Steve, today you get my admiration for describing the way the various agencies in Mexico make their own rules without consulting their sister agencies, resulting in conflicts galore. Paraphrasing the Captain in the movie Cool Hand Luke,

What we've got here is failure to harmonize.

Sandy, I really have no more to offer regarding the pros and cons of various residency categories, other than one correction. You said that an RT would get you a 4 year TIP. Here's the way it works in practice at some (most, all?) ports of entries and INM offices from my own experience and what I've gleaned from others:

  1. The RT visa in your passport gets you a 30-day entry FMM at the border. The FMM is marked CANJE, not VISITANTE. (Insist on it!)
  2. If you get your TIP at the border, Banjercito looks at the expiration date on your FMM, and gives you -- ta dah! -- a 30 day TIP. (Sonia says there are cases of getting 180 day TIPs, but I haven't had that experience.) And they collect $200 from you as a deposit for your promise to remove your 1998 vehicle from Mexico.
  3. You go to your INM office and start the application for your plastic RT card. Whoops -- it takes longer than 30 days. That's OK for your visa, because you have papers from INM saying your application is in process, so you're legal in the country even though the 30-day FMM has expired. But you can't go to Aduana and get an extension letter for your TIP without the plastic card, so on day 30 (or maybe it's 15 days after, Steve can clarify), you've lost your deposit. Banjercito transfers it to Treasury, and it's a near impossible ordeal to get them to send it back.
  4. You've read that RTs are for four years, but everyone I know is finding that they only give you the one year on your first visit. When you renew a year later (more trips to INM, which means you have to schedule your visits around your renewal dates and hope the process completes before you return north), you can renew for 3 years. So you get to four years in two stages.
  5. And at the end of four years, you have to get yourself and your vehicle out of Mexico and start the process all over again at a Consulate.

(Aside on #2. My wife's No Inmigrante expires on Nov. 8 [yes, she was on the very last day before the system changed to RT]. When she drove into Mexico with a US-plated car on Sept. 15, Banjercito gave her a TIP that expired on Nov. 8. No one-year TIP for you, young lady. I take that as more evidence that they like to match the TIP expiration to your residency expiration.)

If you go the RT route, carefully think through how you'll schedule the first annual renewal. You can apply up to 30 days before expiration, but if the process is taking 5 or 6 weeks, that pretty much dictates when you have to schedule your vacation. With RP or Visitante, you don't have these scheduling issues.
Putting aside the rust and storage issues, can a Visitante leave a TIP vehicle in Mexico when going north? Take a look at the paperwork from an old TIP sticker if you have one. It has the FMM # on it. If you leave and return with a new FMM, the numbers won't match. Would a sharp eyed cop notice this? Who knows? You would have to decide how perfect you want your paperwork to be.

I can think of only one possible way for a Visitante to keep a foreign-plated vehicle in Mexico while they're in the States. Get a small van-sized RV. Mexico grants 10-year TIPs for RVs and -- I believe -- allows them to remain in Mexico when the importer is out of the country.
(Sorry Steve for not being able to give 1- or 2-sentence answers. Like your material on Yucalandia, it is complicated and there's no cookbook that outlines all the possibilities when What we've got here is [a] failure to harmonize between agencies.)
Mark


RickS


Aug 26, 2013, 8:47 PM

Post #75 of 79 (3386 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ubumsLK9PE


sandyr

Aug 26, 2013, 11:23 PM

Post #76 of 79 (2792 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Mark,

Thanks for perspective on the complications related to using a temp resident permit with the temp vehicle import. I think I've finally decided I will continue pursuing the perm resident permit but I think we will cancel our application with the consulate for my wife and just get a visitante for her when we cross the border. She will be the one who gets the temp import for the vehicle this time and we will stay in Mexico at least until I get the perm resident card. While we are there, we will look at used Mexican plated vehicles to buy. If we aren't satisfied with that, we will pursue permanently importing the Jeep the next time we go to Mexico. That way I will have the perm resident card in hand in case it's needed for things like getting the Mexican plates. Anyway, thanks again for all your help and expertise. I think this thread has spent about enough time answering my questions, so I should probably give it a break. I've learned a lot!

Sincerely,

Sandy


playaboy

Aug 27, 2013, 4:44 AM

Post #77 of 79 (2780 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Permanent Resident Card and Temporary car permit

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Steve, I would not try to get a 180 day online and when you have a RP pending stamp in your passport. The computers are getting better here.

Sculp, thanks for the clarifacation. Not that it makes any difference, I thought Oscar was a broker. As long as the job gets done is the important thing.

Sandy, as you are researching all the different angles you should look at http://www.cbp.gov/ I suggest you read Robt65 post on importing his wife's car. His post was the most complete writing of the totally legal way to bring a car permanently into Mexico. Good luck with what ever you decide.


at7mbe


Aug 27, 2013, 9:25 AM

Post #78 of 79 (2746 views)

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Re: [RickS] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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Quote

The other appropriate book/movie for dealing with immigration, aduana and rentas for placas would be Trampa-22 (Catch-22).
-- Mark


tonyburton / Moderator


Aug 27, 2013, 11:35 AM

Post #79 of 79 (2728 views)

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Re: [at7mbe] vIisitor permit and Temporary car permit

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On that note, it's time to lock this overlong thread and start again...
 
 
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