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Axixic


Nov 23, 2012, 8:37 AM

Post #76 of 443 (31423 views)

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Re: [frito] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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~ The current $95,000 USD avg monthly balance amount is actually less than half of what the US Census says that 40% of retirees have in savings - which means 40% of US retirees automatically qualify for Mexican residency - making it easier to visit or live in Mexico.


A quick Google check of "average retirement savings" showed that the average retiree 65 and older(the first search return said this) has an average $56,000. $190,000 might mean the value of home equity, pensions, etc thrown in. But examining it closer, wouldn't it be fair to say that of those "likely" to retire to Mexico, isn't more likely that those with limited income such as only having a Social Security check will consider living in Mexico? I'm sure there are well off expats who love Mexico but they don't have to worry about qualifying. And it's great that many here will get grandfathered in or don't need as much income as they own a home, but how many future expats seeking economic relief are going to be in a position to buy a home? There may be some adjusting by the INM to accommodate current expats, but looks like if requirements are adhered to future expats will need to be better off financially to enjoy residency.


The majority of homes owned by expats in Mexico are not in the $200,000 USD range. Most are under $100,000 so that tells us the wealthier are not entering Mexico at the rate of the lower income foreigners. Many who own the higher priced homes don't live here year round. I know one man who has 5 houses in Michigan, a couple of houses in Europe and I think some others I've forgotten about. He doesn't care what Mexico does and only visits for a few weeks once a year.

Economically it should be in Mexico's interest to attract the lower income expats because there are more of them and more money will be spent by them. Even a $1200 a month social security check is twice what an average school teacher or police officer earns, so it must not cost that much to live in Mexico.

Another explanation of U.S. retiree wealth:

http://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2012/07/23/retiree-net-worth-declines

"While the typical household headed by someone age 65 or older had a net worth of $170,128 in 2010, most of that wealth is in the form of home equity. "The run-up in housing values created a lot of wealth, but then the housing market decline took away a lot of that wealth," says Gottschalck. "When you take away home equity out of the net worth, wealth has remained relatively constant." If home equity is excluded from the calculation, the median senior-citizen household had a net worth of just $28,518 in 2010, down from $31,575 in 2005."


YucaLandia


Nov 23, 2012, 8:45 AM

Post #77 of 443 (31420 views)

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Re: [frito] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Fun topic.
Google searches yield interesting results based on Google's highly secret algorithms, with the top entries being based on some tricks - or on commonly trod routes. As an alternative, check out the US Census Bureau official statistics for the top 2 ventiles of Americans between the ages of 55-64 - where 40% of the future US retirement population are 100 million fairly affluent Baby Boomers who had really good earning years in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's - 2008. There is also a description of the predictable demographic and economic consequences - radical changes - coming over the next 18 years, in Yucatan Living's article on how this all affects Mexico's Expat Future, cited below.

The US census figures show a 2-faced Janus-like picture of future American retirees - where the net wealth for the top 40% of upcoming retirees is very very different from the bottom 40%.

The top 40% of 2014 - 2025 eligible retirees average roughly $410,000 in savings per household.

The top 40% of 2014 - 2025 eligible retirees average roughly $440,000 in real estate equity per household.

Is it reasonable to believe that out of 25 million total eligible retirees, the estimated 10 million affluent, newly-eligible retirees each year, with over $800,000 in net worth each, will be sitting at home watching TV or bagging groceries to help out with the bills? ... Many of these 10 million a year of fairly affluent new retirees will consider spending money in Mexico to escape the cold, visit here for months, and some will buy homes here.

All of this makes this post salient to the discussion of INM's income effects on current and future expat communities in Mexico.


Should we expect the top 40% with over $800,000 in assets per household will ... just sit at home, or will keep working ... as a show of solidarity for the bottom 40%?

Will the top 40% feel bad for the bottom 40%?

Will the top 40%'ers tough out the frigid winters, and not take vacations, because people on the other side of town are having a tough time?

I personally doubt it.

Locally, we have already seen strong growth in the numbers of fairly ordinary non-affluent expats who have already retired to Merida and the Yucatan beach area.

10 million new retirees every year between 2014 and 2025 with an average of $840,000 in net worth may just spend some of it in Mexico. (Particularly, since over $400,000 of it is in spendable, liquid, savings. )

Clearly, more than a handfull of 10 million Americans retiring every year, each sitting on $400,000 available to spend as cash, will be coming to Mexico.


See http://www.yucatanliving.com/...tate-predictions.htm and http://www.cepr.net/...r-wealth-2009-02.pdf and http://books.google.com.mx/...55-64%29&f=false for more details.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Nov 23, 2012, 8:47 AM)


Axixic


Nov 23, 2012, 9:09 AM

Post #78 of 443 (31410 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/19/news/economy/net-worth-housing/index.htm



http://business.time.com/2012/06/20/our-net-worth-is-down-39-how-worried-should-we-be/



La Isla


Nov 23, 2012, 9:11 AM

Post #79 of 443 (31408 views)

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Re: [El Gato] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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They apparently utilized the point system as we had only lived here since 2010, when we first got out FM2. They were going to switch me but since I had just renewed, and didn't have my paperwork with, figured I'd wait until next year.

So under the new point system DH got to advance to permanent residency as being retired and on social security. Of course the process has just started and he doesn't have his card in hand yet.

Thank you for your kind comment.


This talk of "point system" is confusing. Everything published so far in the new rules about the new point system only outlines general categories such as knowledge of Spanish, special skills needed in Mexico, etc. and notes that the details will be published later. I wonder what "point system" the INM people in El Gato's case used.


frito

Nov 23, 2012, 9:44 AM

Post #80 of 443 (31391 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Sorry, you are asking me to believe there are over 110,000,000 out of 300,000,000 with assets over $800,000. This may have been the case with highly inflated real estate values in 2008 before the crash but between the crash and so many higher paid older workers being laid off it sounds wildly optimistic. Not to mention if people are doing that well they most likely will be remaining in communities where they've built a life or retire to the Sun Belt. Most likely people looking for an affordable retirement won't have enough income to meet the new requirements unless they have a traditional pension and Social Security remains solvent.


(This post was edited by frito on Nov 23, 2012, 9:46 AM)


Axixic


Nov 23, 2012, 11:00 AM

Post #81 of 443 (31368 views)

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Re: [frito] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Their houses are worth that much until they try to sell.

People with homes worth that much don't move to Mexico. If they move out of the U.S., and why would they, there are countries that offer more.


sfmacaws


Nov 23, 2012, 11:15 AM

Post #82 of 443 (31360 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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You're making some really grand blanket statements there. There are a lot of reasons that people with that kind of savings and income would move to Mexico. Weather, culture, to keep the brain young learning a new language, travel opportunities, less stress... I really am surprised that you seem to think the only reason to move here is financial. I don't know anyone here in Merida that would list that as the first reason that they moved here.

I've spent some time in Ajijic visiting friends in the past and I didn't get the impression from them that money was the driving force in their move so I'm doubtful that it is regional.

If you wanted to live cheaply in reasonable weather, there are places in the US that would qualify, the Salton Sea in Calif comes to mind and several areas of the south and Florida. What's lacking in those areas? Well, culture for one thing, music, art, food. It's not all about the money for everyone.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Rolly


Nov 23, 2012, 11:15 AM

Post #83 of 443 (31359 views)

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Re: Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Folks, can we get back to the subject of this thread: Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office
If you want to continue discussing the solvency of expats or potential expats, start a new thread.

Rolly Pirate


frito

Nov 23, 2012, 8:50 PM

Post #84 of 443 (31271 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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You're making some really grand blanket statements there. There are a lot of reasons that people with that kind of savings and income would move to Mexico. Weather, culture, to keep the brain young learning a new language, travel opportunities, less stress... I really am surprised that you seem to think the only reason to move here is financial. I don't know anyone here in Merida that would list that as the first reason that they moved here.

I've spent some time in Ajijic visiting friends in the past and I didn't get the impression from them that money was the driving force in their move so I'm doubtful that it is regional.

If you wanted to live cheaply in reasonable weather, there are places in the US that would qualify, the Salton Sea in Calif comes to mind and several areas of the south and Florida. What's lacking in those areas? Well, culture for one thing, music, art, food. It's not all about the money for everyone.


But now before we can enjoy all that Mexico offers we have to have enough income to satisfy requirements. A real concern for those of us who thought we had enough and now don't. And now I'm going to respect Rolly's wishes and say no more about it.


sparks


Nov 24, 2012, 5:44 AM

Post #85 of 443 (31239 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Just when I thought Manzanillo had it's act together this happened yesterday. People have been asked for no proof, six months and now a year



Quote

We went today to renew our FM3. We arrived at approximately 9:30 and were given number 10. They were on number 6 so the wait was not long until it was our turn. We hadn't filled out anything ahead of time but that was not any problem. They wanted one year of bank statements. I only had 6 months with me so we provided that and they said to e-mail the remaining 6 months to them. The officer did look over the statements.


Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


careyeroslib

Nov 24, 2012, 8:30 AM

Post #86 of 443 (31192 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Sparks: Do you know whether they were using average balance or pension income? It´s 6 months for pension income and 12 months of showing an average bank balance (according to the rules as I understand them)


morgaine7


Nov 24, 2012, 8:43 AM

Post #87 of 443 (31188 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Also, while they said their purpose in going to INM was to "renew", they didn't mention how many years were on their FM3s, or whether INM had them apply for Temporal or Permanente, since they hadn't filled out the application themselves. The good news is that the Manzanillo office seems to be accepting electronic statements, at least in part, since they were asked to supply the other six months via email.

Kate


sparks


Nov 24, 2012, 9:01 AM

Post #88 of 443 (31182 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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The other part of the post I didn't include. I assume monthly income
--------------------------------------------

Because this was our first renewal, we were able to apply for a card that will be valid for 3 more years. We went to the bank and paid our fee ($5,900 for 3 years) and were finished in just over an hour. It is now a 3 trip process though. Today we applied, then they will e-mail us in about 10 days and we go back for fingerprinting. Then they send that away and we make a third trip in to pick up the finished product

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


mazbook1


Nov 24, 2012, 12:10 PM

Post #89 of 443 (31145 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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sparks, That would appear to be an application, without the 4 years of residence requirement, for Residente Permanente. It's treated similarly to any first-time application for Residente Permananente, with the exception of not having to return to your home country to do the first step at a Mexican consulate or embassy. Folks who apply for Residente Permanente, without the 4 years residence requirement as proven by an FM3 or FM2, can only get it as a 4 year card instead of an indefinite, i.e., permanent card not needing any renewals. As far as I've heard so far, folks with an FM3 card showing proroga 3 or 4 or an FM2 showing refrendo 3 or 4, are being automatically offered a Residente Permanente status without new financials and without any time limit on the card.


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Nov 24, 2012, 12:17 PM)


La Isla


Nov 24, 2012, 2:48 PM

Post #90 of 443 (31117 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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As far as I've heard so far, folks with an FM3 card showing proroga 3 or 4 or an FM2 showing refrendo 3 or 4, are being automatically offered a Residente Permanente status without new financials and without any time limit on the card.


Have you heard of anyone in the FM3 lucrativa category with 4 prórrogas who was granted residente permanente status?


mazbook1


Nov 24, 2012, 4:47 PM

Post #91 of 443 (31092 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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No, I haven't yet heard of anyone who specifically said they had an FM3 actividades lucrativas who renewed directly to the new Residente Permanente, but all you had to show (under the old system) to renew an FM3 > FM2 of that category was your most current paid tax return to prove that you were up-to-date with Hacienda and that your FM3 had 4 prorogas (5 years in residence in México), so I don't feel that it will be appreciably more onerous than before. Your cost for the new Resident Permanente WILL be considerably higher, $1000 MXN for the first step and around $3800 MXN for the second (this is about the same as SRE charges to apply for citizenship). Then you have to wait up to a month for all to go to the Mexico City office (since you're IN Mexico City, it should be less than a month) to get the approval and the new card. BUT those charges are for a PERMANENT card that never has to be renewed, similar to the old inmigrado status!


La Isla


Nov 24, 2012, 6:59 PM

Post #92 of 443 (31063 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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No, I haven't yet heard of anyone who specifically said they had an FM3 actividades lucrativas who renewed directly to the new Residente Permanente, but all you had to show (under the old system) to renew an FM3 > FM2 of that category was your most current paid tax return to prove that you were up-to-date with Hacienda and that your FM3 had 4 prorogas (5 years in residence in México), so I don't feel that it will be appreciably more onerous than before. Your cost for the new Resident Permanente WILL be considerably higher, $1000 MXN for the first step and around $3800 MXN for the second (this is about the same as SRE charges to apply for citizenship). Then you have to wait up to a month for all to go to the Mexico City office (since you're IN Mexico City, it should be less than a month) to get the approval and the new card. BUT those charges are for a PERMANENT card that never has to be renewed, similar to the old inmigrado status!


I pay taxes every month and keep my records in good order, so that's not a problem. My only concern is that I don't earn that much from the teaching and other work that I do here. In the past, that was never an issue, but I wonder if they could start requiring some sort of minimum monthly income from people on lucrativa free-lance visas. I know the new fees for residente permanente have gone up quite a bit, but they will be worth paying if they get me a card that never has to be renewed!


Yacatecuhtli


Nov 24, 2012, 7:07 PM

Post #93 of 443 (31059 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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________________________________________ In Reply To ________________________________________
but they will be worth paying if they get me a card that never has to be renewed!
________________________________________


Its funny, everyone says that, Inmigrados/ residentes permanentes don't need to renew their immigration document or deal with INM ever again but as we all know that is only true until they change the law or modify the circular or lineamientos yet again ...

People that had the old Inimgrado status in the old school FM booklets had to go to INM and get the new Inmigrado card a couple of years ago and now they will have to go and get the new Residente Permanente cards this year. Granted the application process might be a bit easier but it still involves going to the office, waiting in line, getting picture and applications done and going back to wait in line again and picking up the new card...


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


mazbook1


Nov 24, 2012, 7:13 PM

Post #94 of 443 (31059 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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La Isla, I was on a FM3 atividades lucrativa - independent business status for many years before I got my citizenship, and they never wanted anything to do with my financial status (which would only have qualified me for rentista AFTER the 50% discount for owning my own home here) or the actual earnings from my business, and I know that the worry factor is troublesome, but iNo le preocupe!, it will all come out to the good by the time you need to do it next spring.


La Isla


Nov 24, 2012, 7:36 PM

Post #95 of 443 (31053 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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La Isla, I was on a FM3 atividades lucrativa - independent business status for many years before I got my citizenship, and they never wanted anything to do with my financial status (which would only have qualified me for rentista AFTER the 50% discount for owning my own home here) or the actual earnings from my business, and I know that the worry factor is troublesome, but iNo le preocupe!, it will all come out to the good by the time you need to do it next spring.


When I go to INM for my prórrogas, I usually ask if they want information about my pensions (which is what I really live on) and they're never interested. Every year I have to write a short letter (a note, really) explaining what lucrative activities I´ll be engaged in and how much I expect to earn from them each month. One year I put down $1000 MN a month, and that was fine with them!

Mazbook, I really appreciate your comforting words! I've pretty much given up on worrying about all of this and will focus on enjoying the upcoming holidays and the fine weather we've been having in Mexico City.


YucaLandia


Nov 26, 2012, 10:12 AM

Post #96 of 443 (30958 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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There is news out of SMA INM that INM will be shifting to now consider total time spent on our INM permits, when we apply for Permanent Resident. This reliable source (a professional facilitator who works with gringos and INM), says that the previous INM permits have to be continuous, with no break between visas/permits, ... . We are told this is a national change.
SMA is telling their Residente Permanente applicants that these terms are in place for them right now.

Read more at Surviving Yucatan: http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/...d-staying-in-mexico/ and http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


viktoremski


Nov 26, 2012, 10:59 AM

Post #97 of 443 (30942 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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See? ;] That's what I was hoping for all along... Viva Mexico!


John Shrall

Nov 27, 2012, 3:41 PM

Post #98 of 443 (30812 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Got a new status on the INM SEGUIMIENTO DE TRÁMITE web site. The status was "registered", then "assigned" and "classified" and today it was "transferred". I wonder where?

El trámite ha sido trasladado

I applied for permanente on November 16.


sparks


Nov 28, 2012, 3:50 PM

Post #99 of 443 (30710 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I found this on the SMA Yahoo group. Talk about confusion!!! I had to grin. Someone did suggest trying a Mexican Consulate

YOU CANNOT GET A NEW TEMPORARY RESIDENT VISA IN MEXICO IN YEAR #5 WITH AN FM3.
YOU MUST START THE PROCESS AT A US CONSULATE. There is absolutely no wiggle room!!!!!!

In my case the US Consulate in Boston was useless. I went there but they didn't know what to do and sent me home with the assurance that I could enter Mexico with an expired FM3 . There is a grace period of either 30 - 60 days. However,
they knew nothing about the temporary resident visa, what it was or how to get one. It was suggested that I find another Consulate but I have no assurance another Consulate would be helpful.

We are being forced to return to the 180 day tourist visa and all it implies.

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


bronco

Nov 28, 2012, 4:59 PM

Post #100 of 443 (30692 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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i got my 1st FM3 @the mexican consulate in boston. across from the commons in back bay.
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