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Axixic


Nov 21, 2012, 3:15 PM

Post #51 of 443 (24639 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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If I have porroga 1 on my FM3 that means I can pay for 4 more years and then worry about temporal or permanente, or is it 3 years? I never can get that one straight.


DavidHF

Nov 21, 2012, 3:23 PM

Post #52 of 443 (24639 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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The home ownership credit has been in place a long time, and it still is. I highly doubt anything will be rewritten. A quick read of multiple web boards shows that things are working fine as is. Last time I checked, the sky was not falling.


YucaLandia


Nov 21, 2012, 3:31 PM

Post #53 of 443 (24637 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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What about Rentista no Lucrativas? Do they need to show income at renewal?

I imagine there has been such an uproar at INM over the new rules that DF is relaxing the rules such as giving back the half of income requirement for property ownership and giving renewals with no financials.

When the new administration is in place I expect to see the financial rules to be rewritten. These are administrative rules, the rules of and written by an agency in the executive branch so they don't go through the legislative branch. They are not hard to change.


You are free to imagine whatever you want. Since our INM office personnel were trained and instructed to reduce the income requirements by 1/2 from Nov. 9, 2012, there is no evidence to support your beliefs.

Since a Rentista no Lucrativa is by definition a rentier (as described by Ric and I above), if an existing permit holder applies for Residente Temporal, then they may not be required to show documents proving that they have sufficient income. As Rolly has consistently described in several past posts, the individual agents handling your case can and do require documents on some renewal years, and then not ask for any on others.

Specifically, our office is telling applicants that they do not have to bring bank statements on their first visit to INM, but they may be required to bring them in on the 2'nd or 3'rd cita of that year's process. After that, it is all up to the discretion of the INM agent handling your application.

For newbies to the processes, it is often best to not tell a lot of personal stories, to not make waves, and just go with the flow. State exactly what you want, and no more. Ask as few questions as possible, and do what they ask. If something seems screwy, politely ask for clarifications, and avoid being confrontational. 99% of the applications at our INM office go very smoothly, and the ones that have problems seem to be the people who push and insist that they know better.

Last year, I watched one fellow with nominal Spanish skills get very nervous, start complaining about how something was not fair, and then he started getting really pushy about his 2 University student children's status - where they were FM2 dependents under his FM2. The INM personnel pointed out that the kids going to school back in the USA were out of the country too long to meet FM2 requirements. He argued back that he had gotten the same approvals last year. The result: They cancelled both his kids permits, forced him to go to the border (with a special letter from INM) within a week, and when he protested, they said that he should calm down, or they would cancel his permit too.

So, it's best to remain calm, don't imagine or make up excuses about why INM is or is not doing things, and go with the flow - vs. trying to bend their processes to our will.
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Nov 21, 2012, 6:19 PM)


Axixic


Nov 21, 2012, 3:44 PM

Post #54 of 443 (24636 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I was asking for someone else who has that type of FM3. Mine is a regular FM3.


sparks


Nov 21, 2012, 3:52 PM

Post #55 of 443 (24634 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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What about Rentista no Lucrativas? Do they need to show income at renewal?

I imagine there has been such an uproar at INM over the new rules that DF is relaxing the rules such as giving back the half of income requirement for property ownership and giving renewals with no financials.


That first part has been answered a hundred times. Are you confused on terms?

My question is with Ejido property .... is my Carta de Poder enough to show I own/control the house. (GRIN ... as I know it's no good - for this at least)

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


sparks


Nov 21, 2012, 3:58 PM

Post #56 of 443 (24632 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I was asking for someone else who has that type of FM3. Mine is a regular FM3.


Rentista no Lucrativas is a regular fm3

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


Axixic


Nov 21, 2012, 5:34 PM

Post #57 of 443 (24605 views)

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Re: [sparks] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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The person who has one, first had a Lucrativas and then had to work very hard to get it changed to a no Lucrativas which is supposed to mean no pension and not working but receives money from investments. Supposedly it is treated differently than the regular rentista because of no pension.


YucaLandia


Nov 21, 2012, 6:39 PM

Post #58 of 443 (24585 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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The person who has one, first had a Lucrativas and then had to work very hard to get it changed to a no Lucrativas which is supposed to mean no pension and not working but receives money from investments. Supposedly it is treated differently than the regular rentista because of no pension.


Do you have any citations or references for these claims, or is this something you heard through the grapevine?

It helps a lot to read the actual rules, Lineamientos, Reglamento, and Law (or at least detailed first-person reports) to keep discussions based in fact. Speculation sure is fun, but it can be a poor substitute for facts and actual policies.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


mazbook1


Nov 21, 2012, 9:15 PM

Post #59 of 443 (24553 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Note that the person you are referring to DID NOT have the required 4 years of residency on his FM2, so he is being treated as a new applicant (although not having to return to his country of origin) for the Residente Permanente. The folks that have gone automatically from their FM2 to Residente Permanente, without financials, all had at least 4 years residency on the FM2.


Axixic


Nov 22, 2012, 1:24 AM

Post #60 of 443 (24541 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Speculation? You reference a "no lucrativas" on your site:

"Here’s one more perspective on the issue: I spoke with a Merida INM supervisor today about these specific issues, and she made a phone call to her manager to check on her understandings. She then said that:
1. INM would issue this person a “No Inmigrante Visitante Otros – No Lucrativa” – “FM3″ – visa/permit.
2. No taxes are owed to Mexico.
3. The expat should not register with Hacienda."

The person I know who has one made several trips to INM getting the previous FM3 lucrativa changed to a no lucrativa. I drove.

How can it be speculation that a person has an FM3 no lucrativa? Speculation that there is such a thing? Speculation that someone has one? Speculation that MX offers one? Speculation that you cannot give a short answer?


Axixic


Nov 22, 2012, 1:57 AM

Post #61 of 443 (24537 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Will you please cite the income discount for property ownership in the new rules? Many homeowners are upset that they can't qualify financially under the new rules because the previous income discount is not in the new rules.


YucaLandia


Nov 22, 2012, 5:43 AM

Post #62 of 443 (24513 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I'm sorry that my comment about speculations was too oblique, causing you to misunderstand. Here is an attempt to explain it in more clear terms. There has been a lot of empty and outright false speculation about INM's motives and the processes surrounding the new rules, and a lot of speculation about what the rules might be, along with speculation about the outcomes.

A few examples of spurious speculations include:

~ " ... Mexico was having a hard enough time getting retirees to move here because of all the bad publicity and now it puts it out of reach financially of most retirees. "

~ " ... Some optimists think the rules will be changed. People hear from others that Mexico isn't like their home countries and the rules will miraculously change. Some think these rules are the pre-rules like a movie trailer for rules.

~ "... When the new administration is in place I expect to see the financial rules to be rewritten. "

~ " ...I imagine there has been such an uproar at INM over the new rules that DF is relaxing the rules such as giving back the half of income requirement for property ownership and giving renewals with no financials.

~ " ... I can renew for a temporal for two years then I have to show financials for a new one. "

~ "... If you are renewing an FM3 rentista during the 4 time renewal, then you don't need financials. ... "

~ "... If it is a rentista lucracado or no lucracado (sp) you must show financials no matter where it is in the 5 year period. "

~ " ... Maybe the new administration will look at it and rescind the rules but that will be too late for some of us. I guess it's either go illegal and not drive or get a 180 day permit "

~ "... It is extremely unfair. One friend told me that it is a human rights issue. Mexico lets us move here and then yanks the rug out from under us. "

~ " ... This will cost Mexicans more money than what INM thinks, if INM has been thinking. More Mexicans will suffer because of this than we will. "

~ " ... If a property has to be worth more than $195,000 to get around the financial requirements, it won't be worth that much for long because people can't sell their houses to a smaller market and prices will drop like a rock. "

~ "... Those without $2000-$2400 a month in unencumbered income or who don't have $100,000 in the bank and have a house worth less than $195,000 US will have to leave or go to the border every 6 months for a temporary visa ..."

~ " ... (Lakeside area or any other expat community) will become ghost towns. "

~ " ... I'm sure the majority of expats here will not financially qualify. "

~ " ... Whoever came up with these insane financial requirements needs to be fired. "

~ " ... If the person qualifies to become permante with financial or point system, he doesn't need temporal. There is no reason to list temporal if it is not FM3/2. "

~ " ... This is exactly why people don't get what they want because they assume nothing can be done and sit back and take it, instead of fighting back. "

~ " ... Who knows, this could be a ploy by Mexico to force the U.S. into some concessions Mexico wants or the work of MX bureaucrats who hate foreigners. "

~ " ... Obviously someone is using us as pawns or wants most of us out of here. "

~ " ... This is a nightmare for thousands of expats, many of them ill and elderly. "

~ " ... Since they don't qualify for the new temporal and if they need to sell their homes, they are screwed. "

~ " ... The majority of the top 50% receiving SS will not qualify on the income requirement. "

~ " ... the new rules do not effect (Canadians) because most Canadians are 180 day snow birds. "

~ " ... Maybe INM is trying to grandfather in the people who have lived here for years but they still haven't figured out a clear path to do that. "

~ " ... These guys are just pathetic, clueless, worthless individuals. "

~ " ... Obviously you don't live here. I don't know why you are making assumptions that are not close to being true. "

~ " ... There are all kinds of reasons someone might not be as affluent as you through no fault of his own. Maybe God doesn't like them as well. "

~ " ... In a heavy expat populated area like Lake Chapala it will ruin the economy."

~ " ... The bureaucrats who raised the income requirements did so without a logical reason and the new financial requirements violate the new law. "

~ " ... Someone thinks too many people were getting approved who didn't qualify. Maybe a handful did but it didn't harm Mexico. "

~ " ...We think the new rules were written for our detriment, not our benefit. "

~ " ... I think raising the income requirements is typical bureaucratic stupidity. "

~ " ... They are clueless about how much it takes to live in Mexico (our standards), "

~ " ... Most Americans still think Mexico is a Third World country filled with criminals and Mexicans ride burros everywhere. "

~ " ... they don't understand how this will injure Mexico. "

~ " ... Mexico decided to pull the rug out from under us. "

~ " ... they are too lazy or too stupid to punish the right people. "

~ " ... If Mexico doesn't want most of us, we can move. "

~ " ... There is no reason for most people who can afford to live anywhere to live in Mexico. "


Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I just find that excessive speculation often takes on a life of its own, and some people wind up remembering the suppositions as if they were fact.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


cobblestoned


Nov 22, 2012, 11:18 AM

Post #63 of 443 (24447 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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lol Yuca!
I apologize for posting on the "Recent Experiences" topic without anything personal to contribute, but I just had to give you an Atta-Boy for being the voice of reason in a time of uncertainty. Two of the most important things I've learned from my adopted culture are not to take myself too seriously and, "Que sera, sera" can become a philosophy to live by, as well as a Doris Day song.
If you're ever out Vallarta way, I'd be honored to buy you a beer.


(This post was edited by cobblestoned on Nov 22, 2012, 12:09 PM)


El Gato


Nov 22, 2012, 1:53 PM

Post #64 of 443 (24401 views)

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Re: [cobblestoned] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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This morning we went to the Puerto Penasco, Sonora, INM office to renew my DH's FM2 (2nd renewal) - only staff was in the office & they were delighted to help - turns out DH was 1st person to come in that was eligible for the point system for the Permanent Residency so they were eager to practice on him. They had to redo the online form I had done in Oct. (It was too early for him to renew then) and changed the letter. I had a bank statement from US translated into Spanish plus the original (all they had wanted previously) - this time they wanted at least past 3 or 4 months - When we mentioned we also had a Bancomer account, which was next door, they had me go and get the past 4 months statements. We were then good to go on that. I had brought in our SS benefit statements for 2012 and had done a translation of the benefit portion. They didn't want mine - just DH's but they wanted it stamped that it was a good translation. We thought we were being sent to City Hall and after being helped by a lot of wonderful people, and running into a friend, they figured we were in the wrong place. It was a lady behind City Hall that did translations and would also confirm your translation with a stamp. Fortunately our translation passed! Got stamped and back to INM office. Allen took the stamped paperwork and added it to DH's file, along with pictures, old FM2 card, bank statements and letter and computer form.

We were then told that Allen would either call or email if anything else was needed (Staff kept referring to the book). If all goes well DH will get to jump from a 2nd year FM2 to Permanent Residency in one easy leap. We were charged a 1,000 peso filing fee and told that when we came back we would pay the 3,815.00 pesos. Rolly, you were correct on the amount.

In October I will go through the whole thing - but we, as well as staff, should know a whole lot more - at least I hope what I learned today will help then lol.

One thing about our INM office - they are all wonderful, including the guard. One couldn't ask for more helpful or friendly people. They make doing a chore a fun trip.

I'll update when we hear more.
"The World After WW1 - 1918 - 1921" at amazon.com, Barnes & Nobel - letters written at the end of WWI


Judy in Ags


Nov 22, 2012, 4:26 PM

Post #65 of 443 (24375 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Rolly, what was the cost for a three-year renewal?


Rolly


Nov 22, 2012, 4:34 PM

Post #66 of 443 (24372 views)

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Re: [Judy in Ags] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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$3,130 for a single year
$4,690 for two years
$5,940 for three years
$7,040 for four years


Rolly Pirate


Judy in Ags


Nov 22, 2012, 4:37 PM

Post #67 of 443 (24370 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Thanks, Rolly,

I had seen those figures earlier, but couldn't put my finger on them.


Axixic


Nov 22, 2012, 4:59 PM

Post #68 of 443 (24363 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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You do spend an inordinate time trying to insult me. It had to take hours digging up stuff. I never had it done to me in the 7th grade but it does remind me of the 7th grade boys who ganged up on the shyer kids. Today they call it bullying. I call it little men with little di*ks trying to be important. How about I post the crazy PMs you sent me? Would you like that little man?


Bennie García

Nov 22, 2012, 5:16 PM

Post #69 of 443 (24356 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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In Reply To
You do spend an inordinate time trying to insult me. It had to take hours digging up stuff. I never had it done to me in the 7th grade but it does remind me of the 7th grade boys who ganged up on the shyer kids. Today they call it bullying. I call it little men with little di*ks trying to be important. How about I post the crazy PMs you sent me? Would you like that little man?


That particular poster has a history of sending very weird and nasty PMs to those that disagree with his fabrications. Very strange fellow, as you now know.


morgaine7


Nov 22, 2012, 5:29 PM

Post #70 of 443 (24350 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Quote
You do spend an inordinate time trying to insult me. It had to take hours digging up stuff.

Given all the material you provide, it could be done in no time, with or without "science training". Get a grip, please, and stop making a total fool of yourself. You're walking a very fine line between mildly amusing and extremely annoying, not to mention doing a disservice to readers in need of actual information. All IMO, of course. Crazy

Kate


YucaLandia


Nov 22, 2012, 6:14 PM

Post #71 of 443 (24331 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I find your disagreement speculation. How do you I am wrong about anything except that you are speculating.



To keep this thread's information accurate - summarizing how previously questioned things are working at INM offices:
~ INM offices across Mexico are reducing income requirements by 1/2 for property owners. Since many of these same offices did not previously allow the 1/2-off reduction, the income requirements for many many expats are now LOWER under the new Law. These reductions seem to be nationwide policy, but we have not yet heard from all INM regional offices, so please check with your local INM offices for their current policies.

~ INM offices across Mexico are counting prior completed years on existing FM2 and FM3 permits as credits to meeting the 4 year prior residency requirement to qualify for Residente Permanente.

~ The new rules reduce the costs of getting permanent residency in Mexico, by reducing average temporary residencies to just 4 years. This saves both years of time and money for many expats in Mexico, plus saving a year for new Temporary Resident applicants.

~ The new rules allow No Inmigrante Familiar (FM2-spouses) permit holders to qualify for Permanent Residency in just 2 years, removing 3 years of prior required costs and time for many expats who plan to happily live here with their Mexi-familias the rest of their lives.

~ The new rules continue to allow many expat residents to provide no bank statements when they renew their INM permits. Some still may be required to show documents, others not. This is the SAME POLICY as in the past.

~ The new rules have been administered consistently by most INM offices, with most INM employees being properly trained, and others are checking the new rule book when they have doubts. This shows that the INM is not changing the rules mid-stream to bend to a few gringo complaints, because they are following the rules as published before Nov. 9, 2011.

~ The new rules allow expat residents to pay for up to 4 years of their Temporary Residency Cards, which means many expats can avoid three annual extra trips to INM by paying up front - plus the changes help the expats who travel outside of Mexico, so they no longer have to make annual trips back to Mexico, during a narrow window, just to renew their permits.

~ Some expats can qualify for Residente Permanente by simply showing sufficient pension income.

~ Some expats now qualify for residency based solely on having a large enough annual average monthly balance in a retirement account, investment account, or bank account.

~ The current $95,000 USD avg monthly balance amount is actually less than half of what the US Census says that 40% of retirees have in savings - which means 40% of US retirees automatically qualify for Mexican residency - making it easier to visit or live in Mexico.

~ The new rules have many many legal protections for foreigners that did not previously exist, with special focus on keeping families together.

Most of the changes really do significantly benefit most expats who live here: Reduced overall costs, Reduced effort, Reduced trips to the INM offices, Shortened times to becoming a Permanent Resident, Grandfathering in time spent on existing visas, Creating new categories that allow residency to many many US and Canadian expats, etc.

Since the vast majority of the changes significantly benefit both current expat residents and benefit future new residents, then all the things said about how the Mexican Gob. supposedly hates expats living here and wants to drive them out, simply are not born out by the facts.

I hope that these summaries of how the INM offices are actually acting, are helpful.

Hope everyone had a fine Thanksgiving,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Nov 22, 2012, 7:58 PM)


AlanMexicali


Nov 23, 2012, 3:04 AM

Post #72 of 443 (24273 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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I was told that I will be getting temporary resident status being married for over 2 years to my Mexican national wife here in Mexico and there are now no out of the country travel restrictions on this status.They said it will take about 3 weeks to process. After 2 years I can go to permanent resident status. Both do not need financial statements. Alan


morgaine7


Nov 23, 2012, 7:48 AM

Post #73 of 443 (24225 views)

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Re: [El Gato] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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Quote
- turns out DH was 1st person to come in that was eligible for the point system for the Permanent Residency so they were eager to practice on him.

El Gato, are you saying that they gave you the criteria for the points system, or are you referring to the financial requirements? Supposedly the points system was going to be based on education, employment skills and experience, knowledge of Spanish, and so on, but I hadn't seen an announcement that it had been finalized. Good report, BTW, thank you!

Kate


frito

Nov 23, 2012, 7:50 AM

Post #74 of 443 (24224 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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In Reply To
~ The current $95,000 USD avg monthly balance amount is actually less than half of what the US Census says that 40% of retirees have in savings - which means 40% of US retirees automatically qualify for Mexican residency - making it easier to visit or live in Mexico.


A quick Google check of "average retirement savings" showed that the average retiree 65 and older(the first search return said this) has an average $56,000. $190,000 might mean the value of home equity, pensions, etc thrown in. But examining it closer, wouldn't it be fair to say that of those "likely" to retire to Mexico, isn't more likely that those with limited income such as only having a Social Security check will consider living in Mexico? I'm sure there are well off expats who love Mexico but they don't have to worry about qualifying. And it's great that many here will get grandfathered in or don't need as much income as they own a home, but how many future expats seeking economic relief are going to be in a position to buy a home? There may be some adjusting by the INM to accommodate current expats, but looks like if requirements are adhered to future expats will need to be better off financially to enjoy residency.


(This post was edited by frito on Nov 23, 2012, 7:52 AM)


El Gato


Nov 23, 2012, 7:55 AM

Post #75 of 443 (24215 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Recent experiences in INM and Consulate office

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They apparently utilized the point system as we had only lived here since 2010, when we first got out FM2. They were going to switch me but since I had just renewed, and didn't have my paperwork with, figured I'd wait until next year.

So under the new point system DH got to advance to permanent residency as being retired and on social security. Of course the process has just started and he doesn't have his card in hand yet.

Thank you for your kind comment.
"The World After WW1 - 1918 - 1921" at amazon.com, Barnes & Nobel - letters written at the end of WWI
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