Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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http://news.yahoo.com/...tacks-084334837.html

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Three U.S. citizens were among those killed when gunmen attacked buses in the eastern Mexican state of Veracruz, said a U.S. State Department official said on Saturday.
The three were traveling for the holidays when they and several other passengers on the bus were killed by gunmen on Thursday, according to the U.S. official and local media.
The incident was one of several that day in which gunmen attacked busses in the eastern state, a major oil export hub that has lately become a flashpoint for drug gang violence.
On Friday, the tortured bodies of 10 people were found in northern Veracruz, local media reported, as attacks in the region intensify between the Zetas gang and Gulf drug cartels.
In September, 35 bodies were dumped along a downtown highway in the Veracruz city of Boca del Rio.
More than 45,000 people have been killed in cartel-related violence since President Felipe Calderon took office in December 2006.

! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !

joaquinx

Dec 24, 2011, 3:30 PM

Post #2 of 37 (2336 views)

Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Doesn't seem to be a drug war hit, but only highway robbers.

A Cleburne mother and two teenage daughters were among seven people killed in a spree of shooting attacks on buses in Mexico's Gulf coast state of Veracruz, authorities said Friday.

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/24/3616608/3-cleburne-texas-residents-killed.html#storylink=cpy
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Dec 24, 2011, 4:26 PM

Post #3 of 37 (2318 views)

Re: [joaquinx] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

I believe people are slowly awaking to the fact that what Mexico is faced with is not a "drug war" but a war with bandit armies whose activities include drug smuggling.

Dec 24, 2011, 4:31 PM

Post #4 of 37 (2314 views)

Re: [joaquinx] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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While not trying to marginalize the fact that these citizens were killed by thugs, many of us when we read something like this wonder about the circumstances. I am currently visiting Mexico and driving the roads.

From the article, it appears that the three from Cleburne Texas held dual citizenship and were traveling from the US to visit the mother's home in northern Veracruz. The mother was 'hitting one gunman after he entered the bus and he shot her in the head'. He also shot the teenage children, one with Downs Syndrome.

It also appears that the bus was traveling in northern Veracruz close to the state of Tamaulipas in an area "that has been the scene of bloody battles between the Zetas and Gulf drug cartels in the past" and "in a area not frequented by foreign travelers".

Again, dead is dead and it is a shame that this kind of lawlessness continues to happen in Mexico.
attacks occurred is not frequented by foreign travelers

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/24/3616608/3-cleburne-texas-residents-killed.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpytravelfdfdfattacks occurred is not frequented by foreign travelers

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/24/3616608/3-cleburne-texas-residents-killed.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpywas hitting one man and he shot her in the head

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/24/3616608/3-cleburne-texas-residents-killed.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpyhiwas hitting one man and he shot her in the head

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/12/24/3616608/3-cleburne-texas-residents-killed.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

joaquinx

Dec 24, 2011, 4:52 PM

Post #5 of 37 (2307 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

I believe people are slowly awaking to the fact that what Mexico is faced with is not a "drug war" but a war with bandit armies whose activities include drug smuggling.

OK, my opinion is that while the police, military, et al, are occupied with the drug cartels, those simple criminals are freer to commit crimes. They are seeing that the Zetas and whatevers are commiting nasty crimes, that they can do the same. The government forces are simply overwhelmed.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Dec 25, 2011, 4:48 AM

Post #6 of 37 (2248 views)

Re: [joaquinx] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

I believe people are slowly awaking to the fact that what Mexico is faced with is not a "drug war" but a war with bandit armies whose activities include drug smuggling.

Similar crimes happen in the U.S. almost daily so is it because U.S. law enforcement is occupied with something else?

My guess is the criminals could be vindictive Veracruz police officers who were recently fired.

Dec 25, 2011, 8:42 AM

Post #7 of 37 (2206 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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"Similar crimes happen in the U.S. almost daily..."

Well, I live NOB and am somewhat attuned to the news of the country. When something like this happens it is generally the work of one deranged or otherwise mentally incompetent person acting alone. I am not aware of anything on the scope of this bus tragedy happening very often and surely not on an 'almost daily' basis.

Dec 25, 2011, 8:47 AM

Post #8 of 37 (2204 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

I believe people are slowly awaking to the fact that what Mexico is faced with is not a "drug war" but a war with bandit armies whose activities include drug smuggling.

Perhaps you missed the fact that ten beheaded bodies were dumped in the same municipality the next day, and that ten others--including that of the mayor--were found at a landfill earlier this year. I don't know of any place in the U. S. that has had anything to compare to that.

Dec 26, 2011, 5:12 AM

Post #9 of 37 (2100 views)

Re: [RickS] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

This tragedy hasn't happened on a daily bases Mexico either. I believe the story read that the woman attacked the bad guy and he shot her and the two kids. It's always a good idea not to hit someone who has a gun. In the U.S. until the last few years, car jackings happened almost daily and many people were killed for their vehicles. Do you remember the problem Florida had with tourists being killed for their vehicles and a rock group named itself "Dead Tourist?"

People in the U.S. think they are safe and Mexico is dangerous because people in the U.S. judge everything by their own feelings, not the facts. Violent random crime is more common in the U.S. than in Mexico. The majority of violent crime in Mexico is still cartels battling for turf and trying to terrorize politicians and law enforcement into submission.

The U.S. drug consumption has caused crime, insecurity and political problems in more countries than just Mexico.

YucaLandia

Dec 26, 2011, 6:20 AM

Post #10 of 37 (2083 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Is there possibly a difference between Media coverage of and public reaction to murders & violent death in the USA vs Mexico?

When Dillon and Clebold killed 12 white students at Columbine in April 1999, it dominated national news coverage for days, yet there was no reporting that 4 times as many black and latino kids had been killed in just Denver during the 3 previous months, since the beginning of the year.

Americans and the American press may be burned-out on violent deaths of their own: over 50 years of 30,000 - 40,000 violent deaths per year on US highways are pretty much ignored by Big Media coverage => 2 million auto/truck accident deaths are pretty much ignored - while the deaths of 3 people in Mexico get lurid and broad coverage. The US Medical community quietly kills roughly 125,000 Americans a year through correctable medical errors, but do we hear lurid stories about careless doctors?

I am saddened by the violent deaths of Mexicans and Americans, and it is helpful to travelers to know about which routes' travelers are experiencing violent attacks, but is it possible that Big Media coverage may be playing a role in what we perceive and how we react?
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 26, 2011, 6:25 AM)

Rolly

Dec 26, 2011, 6:49 AM

Post #11 of 37 (2067 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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That chart came from http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php
A very interesting website.

Rolly Pirate

YucaLandia

Dec 26, 2011, 7:12 AM

Post #12 of 37 (2053 views)

Re: [Rolly] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Wow... Thanks Rolly !

For Gun Violence: This database lists Mexico as having 17.8 homocides by firearms (per 100,000 people) and USA as 9.1 homocides by firearms per 100,000 people.
US highway deaths come in at 11.7 deaths per 100,000 & US Preventable Medical Error Deaths come in at 41.0 deaths per 100,000.
Troubling,
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 26, 2011, 7:35 AM)

chinagringo

Dec 26, 2011, 7:33 AM

Post #13 of 37 (2042 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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For some reason, I just don't understand the rationale of comparing the US vs Mexico crime statistics. Does one see the same happening in the US? Heck no! Residents in a given State may measure their State vs what the statistics are for another State but we wouldn't sit here in Albuquerque and measure our statistics against those for Mexico as it has no bearing. This constant comparing of crime statistics for say Detroit, New Orleans, Los Angeles, etc to justify or rationalize what is happening in Mexico is simply ludicrous!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

YucaLandia

Dec 26, 2011, 7:47 AM

Post #14 of 37 (2037 views)

Re: [chinagringo] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Hey Neil,
I think it's useful to know where the real risks of harm lie. To look at crime statistics from suspected violent areas vs. peaceful areas let's us decide where we might choose to visit, and where we would avoid or take serious precautions.

Staying in Nuevo Laredo, New Orleans, Matamoros, or Detroit would give me pause, while staying in Merida, Fort Collins, Cuernavaca, or Laramie would make me smile. I offered no justification for the violence in Mexico - but instead find it troubling, just as I find the deaths caused by careless US medical care troubling.

Are the statistical differences between Albuquerque and Ojos Caliente and Española enough to affect where people might choose to move? Specific qualities, statistics, and risks related to location do seem to be important - not ludicrous.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

Dec 26, 2011, 7:49 AM

Post #15 of 37 (2036 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Comparing is what people do.

The U.S. has 2 cities listed in the 10 most dangerous cities in the world.

Detroit is number 2 right behind the number 1 city, Baghdad, and New Orleans is number 8 after Ciudad Juarez at number 6. This is as of 2010.

http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-on-the-world-in-2010/

There were 6 people killed in Grapevine, Texas after opening their Christmas presents yesterday. Possibly a murder/suicide. I wonder if the police weren't so busy with other activities, like traffic, if this would have happened? We could have police stationed at every door and stop all crime. In this case the police would have been posted within the home to stop it, but safety first.

I find the story odd that a bandit entered a bus to rob it, a woman hit him and he killed her and her two children. I think it's very possible that he intended to kill her and her children, she knew it, and that is why she fought with him. I don't think it was a robbery gone bad or that this poor woman decided to fight to protect the bus.

Dec 26, 2011, 7:53 AM

Post #16 of 37 (2033 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

The FBI's Uniform Crime Report for 1999 shows that there were only 63 murders in Denver in that entire year (Table 6 on the link below), so if 48 of these victims were black and Latino kids in a space of three months it was an enormous statistical anomaly.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/99cius.htm

Why should the media dwell on the number of highway deaths when traffic fatalities are the cost of motorized transportation in every country in the world and the rate in the U. S. places it in the middle of the pack among developed countries and it is falling every year?

Dec 26, 2011, 8:08 AM

Post #17 of 37 (2028 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

In 2010 the homicide rate in the United States was 4.8 per 100,000 people, according to the FBI. This includes all methods of killing. The rate has not been as high as 9 per 100,000 for fifteen years now, and only spiked around that figure for a few years. Usually the FBI reports that firearms are used in about two thirds of homicides.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

Dec 26, 2011, 9:04 AM

Post #18 of 37 (2007 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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"Comparing is what people do."

Yes, but when people do that they must accept the responsibility to make sure that what they are comparing is the same or at least similar.... thus the phrase 'comparing apples to apples'.

I am no expert on (in fact I don't even know about) crime statistics in the US nor Mexico. But what I think I know is that the 'gathering and reporting' of said cannot be compared directly. And unless one knows 'how' they differ, one cannot draw accurate conclusions.... or at least not without acknowledging that there may be differences enough to make the comparison highly suspect.

What I am saying is that I would find it impossible to take one statistical table, compare it with another and then make any kind of reasonable and accurate conclusion without knowing a lot about the how the data was initially collected and by whom, massaged and then reported. Until that (and other things) is known, trying to make sense of numbers is highly suspect and probably not worthy of making observations and surely not to use as facts.

Dec 26, 2011, 9:06 AM

Post #19 of 37 (2007 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In the USA we spend billions each year to imprison people. Crime should be down since most Baby Boomers, who are about half the population, are too old to commit crimes or we've locked up almost all criminals or people who look like they could be criminals. The USA has a sad record of having the highest prison population among First World countries and still the highest murder rate.

Violent crime in Mexico is almost all criminals killing off each other for territory, not random crime like in the U.S. in which everyone can be subjected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Violent_crime

"The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 murders in the United States in 2010"

"In 2004, there were 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 persons, roughly three times as high as Canada (1.9) and six times as high as Germany (0.9). A closer look at The National Archive of Criminal Justice Data indicates that per-capita homicide rates over the last 30 years on average of major cities, New Orleans' average per capita homicide rate of 52 murders per 100,000 people overall (1980–2009) ranks highest among major U.S. cities"

Dec 26, 2011, 9:07 AM

Post #20 of 37 (2003 views)

Re: [RickS] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

Take some science classes and you can learn how to compare data.

Dec 26, 2011, 9:14 AM

Post #21 of 37 (1998 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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No comment.....

Dec 26, 2011, 9:23 AM

Post #22 of 37 (1989 views)

Re: [RickS] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

No comment.....

Put it like this: If you go to Baghdad, stay in the Green Zone; If you go to Detroit, stay in the nicer areas and don't walk around the inner city crime areas; If you go to Mexico, don't hang out with drug gangs or walk around Ciudad Juarez at night in crime areas.

Nowhere do you hit someone who is pointing a gun at you. That goes for anyplace in the world.

chinagringo

Dec 26, 2011, 6:44 PM

Post #23 of 37 (1926 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Steve:

Sorry that I responded directly to you as I certainly wasn't questioning your post! More to the point, why not compare statistics from another Mexican State when discussing an incident that happens in Mexico. To my way of thinking, that would be a heck of a bunch more valid. Personally, I separate what happens in Mexico from the constant justifications that use a comparison with what happens NOB. To me. these are nothing more than BS! When we travel to Mexico, I only care about what is happening wherever we plan to travel and make travel decisions based upon that factor.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

jrpierce

Dec 27, 2011, 11:17 AM

Post #24 of 37 (1855 views)

Re: [chinagringo] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Hi all....

Every time a US citizen is killed in Mexico, some of us who live here go crazy with worry, and some tell the story about how dangerous Mexico is becoming.

I'm a warden for the US Embassy. Recently 2 fellow wardens and I met with our contact from the Embassy. His take is that while sometimes US Citizens are hit by accident, that there is zero evidence that they are being targeted as a group. Often folks from the US who are killed are themselves involved in the drug trade, or related criminal activities. They may also do foolish things (like hitting armed gunmen on the head).

When we start getting into all sorts of statistical comparisons, I feel it just muddies the waters. Here's the bottom line: in 2010, per the State Department, 111 US Citizens were killed out of millions of visits by US Citizens. Several US cities can easily top that number.

I hear the numbers will be somewhat higher for 2011, but in my view, this is no cause for concern. Bottom line--US citizen residents or visitors to Mexico are quite safe!

Jim

Brian

Dec 27, 2011, 2:07 PM

Post #25 of 37 (1825 views)

Re: [jrpierce] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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You were right. Here is another to add to the statistics. The kid was down to visit his relatives in Michoacan.

http://dailyherald.com/...1226/news/712269780/

(This post was edited by Brian on Dec 27, 2011, 2:12 PM)

kingchar88

Dec 29, 2011, 1:45 AM

Post #26 of 37 (1175 views)

Re: [Brian] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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add me

Dec 29, 2011, 7:46 AM

Post #27 of 37 (1133 views)

Re: [Axixic] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

No comment.....

According to Mexican TV reports this criminal group had just killed four people for no reason at all before stopping the buses, then a female member of the band told a mother to hush her baby and killed both parents when she was unable to do so, then they killed the driver of another bus who stopped to assist. It is shameful to suggest that these victims contributed to their own deaths.

Dec 29, 2011, 8:24 AM

Post #28 of 37 (1122 views)

Re: [jrpierce] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

At the State Department site below you can find that from Jan. 1, 2010 through June 30, 2011, in all of Canada, the United Kingdom, France and Germany, there was precisely one U. S. citizen murdered (in Germany in January, 2010). According to you there were 111 in Mexico in 2010 and more this year. That sounds like a devastating comparison to me.

http://travel.state.gov/law/family_issues/death/death_600.html?country=0

richmx2

Dec 29, 2011, 9:11 AM

Post #29 of 37 (1107 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Killed is not murdered. People generally don't go to UK or Canada for the beaches, and seldom drown just for starters. Yes, more U.S. citizens are murdered in Mexico, but there are a lot more U.S. citizens in Mexico to be murdered than in those other countries, and more U.S. citizens (alas) involved in the kinds of activities that get people murdered. That's not to say these four people were involved in anything, nor that they should have "known better" than to be in rural areas or act somehow differently, but that statistically, U.S. citizens are extremely unlikely to be targets of violence. If anything, given the U.S. role in providing both the weaponry and market for criminal activity in Mexico, the Mexican criminals have shown remarkable forbearance in not targeting USAnians.

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

jrpierce

Dec 29, 2011, 9:25 AM

Post #30 of 37 (1103 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Actually, Norteño, to me this comparison is not devastating. We all know that percentage comparisons against very low numbers can be misleading. For example, John made $1 last month, Charles made $100 dollars--100% more. But neither made very much money.

With millions of US citizen visits to Mexico each year, with a million US citizens living in Mexico, with 100's of thousands of US citizens crossing the border for work every workday, I think 111 is a very small number. Add to that the fact that some percentage of those killed were themselves involved in the drug trade in some way. Add to that the fact that no one says the cartels are targeting Americans.

Others may disagree, but I simply don't think the facts support the notion that Americans are in any grave danger in Mexico.

Jim

joaquinx

Dec 29, 2011, 12:05 PM

Post #31 of 37 (1067 views)

Re: [jrpierce] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

For example, John made $1 last month, Charles made $100 dollars--100% more. But neither made very much money.

Now, I'm confused. John made 1% of what Charles made, but Charles made 10,000% of what John made. Yet, neither made much money, especially if it was pesos. Yes?
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

robt65

Dec 29, 2011, 6:00 PM

Post #32 of 37 (1024 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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norteno,

Read this and anynumber of other verifiable news reports about killed or murdered (dead is dead) in Germany alone in March of this year, 2011. http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/02/two-shot-dead-on-us-military-bus-at-german-airport.html knowing these reports and facts to be true, why in the world would an intelligent person believe either that State Department Stat or any other stat for that matter and call it "gospel'? Statistics are believed by far too many people, without those same people checking on their own. As one author many years ago wrote in his wonderful book . . . . . "We are indeed a Nation of Sheep" . . . . Herds of both wild animals and mobs start panic exactly for these reasons. So check your facts before posting them or for all you know you may unjustifiably start another useless stampede! (smiling)

I think that the above heavily covered story out of Frankfurt, Germany just shot (pardon the pun) a 50% hole, in your belief of the State Departments stats! That very kind of "preciseness" is what taints all statistics by anyone. As a pervious poster said, in I think post #18 and another said in post #20 in so many words is that it is impossible to rely on statistics, as all statistics can be "massaged' and they usually are.

My 2 pesos worth.

robt65

Dec 29, 2011, 6:39 PM

Post #33 of 37 (1013 views)

Re: [robt65] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

I certainly never said I believed the State Department list was an exhaustive compilation of all murders of U. S. citizens abroad, they themselves say it is not and I have pointed that out on this forum before. The only people I have known to cite it as an accurate indication of the number of U. S. citizens killed in Mexico are people trying to downplay the subject of violence in that country, and they have a hard time explaining the hugely disproportionate numbers of such reports.

Dec 29, 2011, 7:02 PM

Post #34 of 37 (1002 views)

Re: [norteño] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Just one example of a U. S. citizen murdered in Mexico that is not shown on the State Department list--a 65-year-old man found tied up and stabbed to death in his apartment in Acapulco on Feb. 8, 2011. It sounds like the motive was robbery with an attempt to make it look like a narco killing :

http://www.lapoliciaca.com/...le-dejan-un-mensaje/

(This post was edited by Rolly on Dec 29, 2011, 8:10 PM)

frito

Dec 29, 2011, 8:32 PM

Post #35 of 37 (981 views)

Re: [YucaLandia] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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In Reply To

US highway deaths come in at 11.7 deaths per 100,000 & US Preventable Medical Error Deaths come in at 41.0 deaths per 100,000.
Troubling,
steve
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Wouldn't that put medical error deaths at a bit over 12,000 a year and not 125,000? What's interesting to me is the blaming of drug consumption by Americans for all that ails Mexico. And yet most Americans do not consume illegal drugs. Saw a stat recently and I forget the % but I believe it was close to 80% saying they've never tried
cocaine. The average user of cocaine tends to be liberal. Let's get all you liberals to give up your lifestyle and stop the senseless killings in Mexico. Sorry, couldn't resist...

tashby

Dec 29, 2011, 9:03 PM

Post #36 of 37 (975 views)

Re: [frito] Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

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Quote

Saw a stat recently and I forget the % ....

Mental note to myself not to re-visit this retarded thread again, wherever it went.

Rolly

Dec 29, 2011, 9:39 PM

Post #37 of 37 (966 views)