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Brian

Jan 30, 2010, 6:04 AM

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Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Within the past few days, the state of Michoacan has been the stage of some particularly violent events involving the murder of a police chief and the discovery of several dismembered bodies. Yesterday, the cartel news took a turn to the bizarre. Residents of the city of Zamora, twice witnessed a spectacle in which men who had obviously been flagellated and otherwise tortured were paraded around one of the main glorietas bearing signs that they were being made an example by the La Familia who accused them of thievery and other crimes. La Familia has a strange set of values in which individual members are required to refrain from intoxicants and to be champions of "family values" in the community. Drug trafficking and murder are ok, however, in pursuit of the higher good whatever that is. Anyway, the men who were subjected to this public display refused to accept offers of medical treatment by the Cruz Roja and would not cooperate with a police investigation.

http://www.correo-gto.com.mx/notas.asp?id=146883

Brian



Manuel Dexterity

Jan 30, 2010, 7:52 AM

Post #2 of 65 (15137 views)

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Re: [Brian] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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What a bunch of irresponsible pansies who fail to do their civic duty.


esperanza

Jan 30, 2010, 10:10 AM

Post #3 of 65 (15110 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Geez, Sr. Dexterity: they probably didn't want their faces sliced off and sewn to a soccer ball. That happened to some other 'pansies' just a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









gpkgto

Jan 30, 2010, 10:21 AM

Post #4 of 65 (15109 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I assume you are being facetious. No one cooperates with the police in such cases. There are also never any witnesses to robberies, hit-and-run, etc. The police are often not trusted and the potential repercussions could involve the witness' family.


Manuel Dexterity

Jan 30, 2010, 11:20 AM

Post #5 of 65 (15097 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I assume you are being facetious.


Wasn't it obvious?

These guys got off lucky and they know it. Only a complete pendejo would file a complaint. If they were smart they would head for NOB.


(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on Jan 30, 2010, 11:23 AM)


gpkgto

Jan 30, 2010, 11:23 AM

Post #6 of 65 (15094 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Not to esperanza--unless she was being facetious, too.


Manuel Dexterity

Jan 30, 2010, 11:25 AM

Post #7 of 65 (15091 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Not to esperanza--unless she was being facetious, too.


Yeah...well. I guess some people lack a functioning sarcasm detector.


tonyburton / Moderator


Jan 30, 2010, 12:15 PM

Post #8 of 65 (15075 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Unfortunately, for sarcasm to work well, you need to know your audience, which is impossible in the context of a forum such as this, which is read by an incredibly diverse range of people. This means that, here at least, sarcasm is not a reliable form of reliable communication or even of reliable humor.


Manuel Dexterity

Jan 30, 2010, 12:37 PM

Post #9 of 65 (15067 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Oh but Tony, wouldn't you say we all reliabably know which posters around here are reliable.


esperanza

Jan 30, 2010, 12:46 PM

Post #10 of 65 (15064 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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In Reply To
Not to esperanza--unless she was being facetious, too.


Yeah...well. I guess some people lack a functioning sarcasm detector.

What I lack, in the current circumstances, is much of any kind of sense of humor regarding the on-going problems with narcoviolencia in Mexico.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Manuel Dexterity

Jan 30, 2010, 12:54 PM

Post #11 of 65 (15059 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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My sarcastic reply to the OP was not aimed at you but at the original post which was sarcastic in itself. If you misunderstood, ni modo.


Brian

Jan 30, 2010, 12:58 PM

Post #12 of 65 (15055 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I take responsibility for the direction this message thread has turned because of the subject line. It was intended to be ironic rather than sarcastic. It comes on the heels of a post about criminal record keeping in San Miguel de Allende. In that city, the chief has stated that unless a crime is formally denounced before the Ministerio Publico (not just reported to the police), it is classified as a rumor rather than a fact. The former mayor of San Miguel has claimed that there were 18 kidnappings in the entity last year but the new administration has denied this. All but two of those were either classified as rumors or "levantones" a category that comes mighty close to kidnapping in most peoples' understanding. Especially when it comes to kidnapping, many victims or their family members will not go through the denuncia procedure for a variety of reasons. With these fellows, who clearly were taken against their will, the reason is obvious.

http://www.correo-gto.com.mx/notas.asp?id=146754

http://www.correo-gto.com.mx/notas.asp?id=146643

Be sure to read the comments section which follow the articles.


(This post was edited by Brian on Jan 30, 2010, 1:33 PM)


tonyburton / Moderator


Jan 30, 2010, 1:11 PM

Post #13 of 65 (15043 views)

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Re: [Brian] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I was not attempting to place responsibility anywhere, but only to emphasize that clarity of communication on a forum such as this is unlikely to be achieved via sarcasm (or indeed via most forms of humor).
In response to manueldexterity, no assumptions can be made about the readers of these forums. Possibly regular or long-established readers can work out the personalities of posters, but that is not the case for the majority of our readers, who have never (and may never) make a single post of their own.


Reefhound


Jan 30, 2010, 7:47 PM

Post #14 of 65 (14995 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Many forums offer emoticons which can help clarify the tone of a comment. Is that not a feature here?


arbon

Jan 30, 2010, 9:33 PM

Post #15 of 65 (14982 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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"Many forums offer emoticons which can help clarify the tone of a comment. Is that not a feature here?"

No.

But people have trouble knowing what a question mark means.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Rolly


Jan 30, 2010, 10:30 PM

Post #16 of 65 (14968 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Emoticons -- I just noticed that the old page of these things has gone missing, so here is a new posting on the Practice & Help Forum.

http://www.mexconnect.com/...i?post=139579#139579

Rolly Pirate


(This post was edited by Rolly on Jan 30, 2010, 10:30 PM)


Hound Dog

Feb 1, 2010, 6:24 PM

Post #17 of 65 (14903 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Please, oh please, do not offer the "emoticons" feature here. Nothing is achieved when writing ironically or satirically by telling the reader through an "emoticon", that the preceding posting was meant to be to be a wry comment and that the reader should be amused. The "emoticon" defeats the comment.

That having been said, I agree with Esperanza that the happenings in Michoacan are a bit on the repulsive and frightening side to be funny. We canceled plans to drive from Lake Chapala to Chiapas last month by taking the route from Uruapan to Lázaro Cardenas and down the coast and took the Arco Norte instead. Enough is enough.

It should speak volumes that someone who lives in San Cristóbal de Las Casas won´t risk traversing the backroads through Michoacan to get to the coast and the fact we canceled that long planned trip just ain´t funny.


Reefhound


Feb 1, 2010, 6:41 PM

Post #18 of 65 (14895 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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This from our local rag last night.

Elsewhere, as many as 20 suspected gangsters attacked a police station on Sunday with assault rifles and grenades in the Pacific port of Lazaro Cardenas. A policeman and two civilians, who were at the station to pay a fine, were killed.


Peter


Feb 2, 2010, 7:33 AM

Post #19 of 65 (14860 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I just got back to Morelia from several days on the coast. I rented a cabaña in Nexpa, visited friends in Lázaro Cárdenes, Guacamayas, spent a few hours in Playa Azul twice - going and coming, and had lunch in Nueva Italia. I didn´t have to dodge any bullets.

Not safe to hang around police stations, I guess. Better to pay the mordida on the road?

Feel safer in the US? Yeah, Los Angeles was a quiet little burgh. Stuff happens, especially in Mexico it seems. Dangerous, I´m told. The temples make more noise firing off sky rockets, helps drown out the bullets. I´m not losing any sleep.

I hear Japan has some very safe cities.


Reefhound


Feb 2, 2010, 7:58 AM

Post #20 of 65 (14846 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Arrggh! Peter, not trying to paint a picture of anarchy here. Just thought it interesting that Dawg had planned to go there and changed his mind then this happened. Violence is random and can happen anywhere. All you can do is the best you can to put the odds in your favor and the rest is up to a higher power.


Peter


Feb 2, 2010, 8:33 AM

Post #21 of 65 (14837 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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My previous post I had started as a reply to HD but your post about the bystanders at the police station encouraged me to change that to reply to you instead. I agree, I don´t do things to prompt the odds against me, just do what I can to be safe as possible and go about living and enjoying life as best I can. It´s pretty easy to enjoy life here.

The whole complexion of things changed after the elections and intensifying the war on drugs. I´m sure the people feel much safer now knowing everyone is doing all they can to... well, I´m a little confused about just what the intentions are, but they are doing so much more of it nowadays.

The news media tells me it´s a war zone and heads are literally rolling. I just don´t see it. Today I´m staying home and playing house with my Mexicana pareja. It´s cold and rainy today. She put on a nice pot of barbacoa de res yesterday and we finished it for breakfast this morning. Life here is good.


(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 2, 2010, 10:51 AM)


La Isla


Feb 2, 2010, 8:44 AM

Post #22 of 65 (14828 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Why is it that some here seek out stories of atrocities committed by the narco gangs and others choose not to dwell on the increasingly dire security situation in Mexico? I think that a lot of it has to do with our our individual outlooks on life and even our personalities. I find myself being more concerned about the increase in crime in the country in general and in certain areas in particular, but my daily routine continues along a peaceful path here in the ombligo de México...


Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 2:22 PM

Post #23 of 65 (14796 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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The subject of caution and fear lacing ones disposition and decision making can in some cases not only be inhibiting but most always shored by others voices of fear, such as media and others who are always there to validate your need to be reassured you are in its flow.


Most of us know sensationalism thrives on itself and playing into it is exactly its game. This self feeding machine which not only sells but recruits obedience to red flags, sign posts and more is designed to herd the masses in the direction of its intent.

I abhor admitting this but yes, “fear” is one of the best/or horrific sellers, bar none, of anything it wants you to buy. It runs the gamut of one’s fear of running out of tooth paste, to losing your life and everything in between. Terrorism, murder and the like, kick-up the ultimate ante where stakes can make you grit your teeth and comply and/or revolt against this fear, of fear. There are those in our lives who know this game well and many others in life who use it well to control, and flagrantly force condescension by followers who’s credence to fear is their bedfellows.

Luckily we have the luxury of choice. Some, like I, have an inner revolt of those bent on limiting this choice through well calculated or misguided atrocities which are meant to grip your innards and twist your life into catering to all the fears which lurk in the crevasses of yours and everyone else’s life. The human condition through conditioning has “never” made a mystery that killing is the ultimate controlling agent by which we are harvested into obeying for fear of losing our own lives. Therefore, stand at attention, upright and heed my existence when I drop a bomb in your neighborhood. My God, I refuse to allow these ill intended A-holes to straddle my life, my joy of living, everything I’ve strived for, to drop a bomb or the like, as they’ve done since man has walked the earth and continually eat the crap which makes one sick with fear….


Fear mongers; heed your attention, in so many ways. My favorite, “you can’t go through life burying your head in the sand,” and/or you must see things as I do or you are less then I, or you’re going to die much sooner than I because I’m careful, cautious, well behaved, fearful, and everything else which is sensible and yes, perhaps safer in so many, many ways and on and on and on…….sheeesh! Does “it” ever stop…NO! I and so many others are literally sick of this diet and if needed will “choose” to put our collective heads in the “so called” sand to squeeze out mantra’s guiding one’s life from one fear to another….. Now, its time for a cold one and a taco...


gpkgto

Feb 2, 2010, 2:35 PM

Post #24 of 65 (14784 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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It sounds like a few "cold ones" were already had.


Reefhound


Feb 2, 2010, 2:37 PM

Post #25 of 65 (14784 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Dead men have no fear, and they neither obey nor revolt.


Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 2:52 PM

Post #26 of 65 (11829 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Quote
Dead men have no fear, and they neither obey nor revolt.



Reefhound,

Now, that really sounds scarrrry! But I think you can do better than that...Huh!


Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 3:02 PM

Post #27 of 65 (11820 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Quote
It sounds like a few "cold ones" were already had.


Fear mongering is so, so easy. Just latch on to the news and ride its tails and the desired listeners seeked will heed your warnings, again, again and again. Yes, it just doesn’t stop, does it..


esperanza

Feb 2, 2010, 3:46 PM

Post #28 of 65 (11815 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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In Reply To
Why is it that some here seek out stories of atrocities committed by the narco gangs and others choose not to dwell on the increasingly dire security situation in Mexico? I think that a lot of it has to do with our our individual outlooks on life and even our personalities. I find myself being more concerned about the increase in crime in the country in general and in certain areas in particular, but my daily routine continues along a peaceful path here in the ombligo de México...

In Morelia and the rest of Michoacán, there's no need to seek out anything. It's right in our faces all the time. It's not about fear-mongering. It's about reality. This is the news here, because it's life's reality here. My daily routine also has a peaceful path, but life's reality gives me occasional pause.

For example, I was up-close-and-personal with the governor and his wife today. Did it give me pause to know that he could easily be a target, and that there I was hugging his wife? You betcha. Did it stop me? Nope.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









La Isla


Feb 2, 2010, 4:04 PM

Post #29 of 65 (11808 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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When I wrote about those who seek out atrocity stories, I wasn't thinking of my friends in places like Morelia, where the (lack of) security situation is right in your face. I was thinking more of those who post stories of the latest atrocities who don't necessarily live in places like your hometown or Ciudad Juárez but who feel the need to let the rest of us know how scary life in Mexico is becoming.

If I lived in Morelia, I would hope that I would approach life just the way you do, Esperanza, though I doubt I'd be hobnobbing with the governor and his señora!


Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 5:23 PM

Post #30 of 65 (11798 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Quote
I find myself being more concerned about the increase in crime in the country in general and in certain areas in particular, but my daily routine continues along a peaceful path here in the ombligo de México...


Peaceful path, I really like that and personally I enjoy the presences of peace especially when we are surrounded by a human condition which harbors pain, destruction and fear. Some call it reality. But then again, what is reality to some can be mere folly and/or conditioning one adopts and lives within.… Its so easy to fall in lockstep with that which is considered popular or what some like to call the norm or even “their reality.” Some eventually call that which is fed to us intravenously from birth and those before them, reality.

Is there perhaps a different reality or is there many realities, and that in itself, “is reality.” Again, I too enjoy the path of peace and whatever I can do through “self awareness” to maintain its presence. No matter what anyone says, people believe what they want, and are going to believe as “their truth.” Whatever it is, it is, and opinions which are given life from it, is exactly that, yes, just another opinion on the horizon where peace is perhaps closer then we know, and in ways that have always been there but some realities are very good at hiding it.

(This post was edited by Oscar2 on Feb 2, 2010, 5:24 PM)


La Isla


Feb 2, 2010, 5:44 PM

Post #31 of 65 (11783 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I am not by nature a "peaceful" person, but as I get older, I find that the search for inner peace is more and more essential to my well-being, both physical and spiritual. Finding a peaceful path to follow is possible even while living in turbulent Mexico City and in these turbulent times. Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post, Oscar2.


arbon

Feb 2, 2010, 5:55 PM

Post #32 of 65 (11772 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Perhaps you do not know what happens in far off places, when the supply of imported drugs become scarce.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



La Isla


Feb 2, 2010, 6:16 PM

Post #33 of 65 (11766 views)

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Re: [arbon] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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What does this have to do with my "peaceful" comment?


Peter


Feb 3, 2010, 6:20 AM

Post #34 of 65 (11717 views)

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Re: [arbon] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Perhaps you do not know what happens in far off places, when the supply of imported drugs become scarce.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I don´t. The people then become happy and productive, family violence comes to a halt, and everyone lives happily ever after? That´s the goal of the War on Drugs, right?


Peter


Feb 3, 2010, 6:33 AM

Post #35 of 65 (11716 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Is there perhaps a different reality or is there many realities, and that in itself, “is reality.”
************


Perhaps so, Oscar. I watch the morning news and glance at an occasional newspaper so am aware of what is going on here, I just have not seen any of it. The former Tijuana jailor is bound to see things with a different perspective than mine. Esperanza lives on the other side of Acueducto from me. It seems her neighborhood is more violent than mine. I live with the poor folk whose family´s budget doesn´t include bullets.


wearechange

Feb 4, 2010, 5:47 PM

Post #36 of 65 (11663 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Ironically many people feel safer in towns "administrated" by La Familia. In the States the excuse for creating a police state is Al Qaeda and in Mexico we have the cartels.

wearechange.org
infowars.com


Oscar2

Feb 5, 2010, 12:08 PM

Post #37 of 65 (11614 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Excuse the delay in responding but I had to think about this one in many ways. As one of some of us regulars who hang around MC’s lobbies and corridors, I find your post’s of Morelia, not only refreshing but one whose stalwart approach to life is reassuring. For the most part, I don’t experience you as one who routinely gives homage to those, idiots, A-holes and more who are in the mayhem business and depend on their atrocities to be disseminated not just by the media but more important, word of mouth by obsequious coat tale enthusiast.


I see you mentioned Esperanza’s mindset, and yes, I too have noticed her Morelia public disposition for quite some time now, and frankly it’s a bit disturbing when it’s frothed with more like despair, and dissatisfaction, without even a hint of the upside. I sense her posts are almost void or lacking the bolstering of support her new found home town direly needs at this time the media without conscience blemishes the city even more. Your welcome to chime-in Esperanza, and the reasons I sense and say these things is because I know from your past living in Guad, you were an admirable stalwart supporter, ambassador of good will one could count on here on MC, regardless of ongoing complaints of killer traffic and more.

We are all aware of the atrocities, murders and more occurring not just in Michoacán, but the open mouthed blood spurting drenching my city, and cities all over this planet have been experiencing for some time now. It is unsettling to say the least, but I still refuse to propagate the fears ill intended foes depend on. We can unfortunately depend and have the media to thank for playing right into their game plan as they intend.

The days of good will ambassadorship voiced by SP, have dwindled to a point where even if your newly adopted home town is bad mouthed by an MC member, your response has been none. I don’t get it. I personally like the feel of my stay in El Centro Historico. I believe you, Peter, like the place you are in Morelia. There isn’t too many MC’ers living there that I know of over the years, so yes, input is indeed sparse and “anything” positive is what is needed “right now,” not the opposite. There are hundreds of thousands of Michoacán residents whose lives go on as normal and MC’ers must also take them into consideration when wrestling with personal emotion and voicing opinions. I know, for some this maybe a tough nut, but I believe someone once said, when things get tough, the tough go shopping… It’s kind of incongruous but I think we get the idea.


Excuse the length of this post but if you will, let’s just look at it as more hallway conversation in the midst of MC corridors.


(This post was edited by Oscar2 on Feb 5, 2010, 12:27 PM)


arbon

Feb 5, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #38 of 65 (11601 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Oscar, are you saying that you would file a denuncia, if you were in the same situation?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Peter


Feb 7, 2010, 9:24 AM

Post #39 of 65 (11547 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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In the next couple of weeks I am moving to a new place around the corner from where you stayed in Morelia, the Galeria Suites as I recall. Morelia escaped major damage from this recent storm with no more than the usual light flooding in the low areas. Even those places near the river that sometimes got the overflow were spared by improvements to the drainage systems, though I´m sure in a city this size there were many that did endure some discomforts or worse. The rain here was not overly heavy but steady day and night for a few days. However, if Noah´s Ark had been built like my rented house there would be no human race remaining.

I really like my house here at the mouth of that long tree-lined walkway parallel to the acueducto that leads up to the Santuario de Guadalupe you described so elequently. It is so convenient being just at the edge of the Centro Historico but now I´m going to be living right in the middle of it with all the daytime heavy traffic and near-impossible parking situation. You now know this area fairly well from your recent stay and know I´m trading one convenience for many others. There is so much to see and do here with new events scheduled all the time I feel fortunate to be right in the middle of it all and get to experience it with the convenience usually reserved for visitors and tourists.

Some may view this move with some reservation given all the bad press we´ve had in recent times but I am really looking forward to it. If I do, however, begin to see the news unfolding before my eyes here I will post about it as honestly as possible. But for now your colorful and enthusiastic descriptions of Morelia will suffice as that is the emotion I still feel after nearly five years living here as I walk these downtown streets and marvel at the history it all tells. Morelia boasts some of western civilization´s firsts on these continents in the New World and buildings that date back to the sixteenth century. It has seen turbulent times and withstood, and I believe it will continue to thrive and offer pleasure to many in the time to come.


esperanza

Feb 7, 2010, 10:28 AM

Post #40 of 65 (11535 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Oscar, posting facts about life--wherever that life is lived--is not "badmouthing" one's location. It's simply reporting facts. I have not personally witnessed any of the killings or violence here in Morelia, but whether you like reading about those facts or not, they exist.

You, on the other hand, adjure that my posts are "frothed with more like despair, and dissatisfaction", and are "almost void or lacking the bolstering of support her new found home town direly needs".

Boosterism is the act of "boosting," or promoting, one's town, city, or organization, with the goal of improving public perception of it. Boosterism in today's Morelia (or even in Michoacán as a whole) would be promoting a lie, a lie in which I refuse to participate. Foreign tourists or residents, even foreigners living here like Peter, might never see or be subjected to violence, but that does not mean that violence is not all around them. The media are not "playing right into their game plan as they intend". The media report the news (body counts, facts of killings, and other related statistics), except in their editorial columns of opinion. It would be a gross neglect of duty to gloss over and hide the darker side of the reality here.

Yes, Morelia is a beautiful, graceful, and lively city with wonderful cultural pleasures, advantages and benefits. Yes, I love living here and have written about it frequently, both here and, of course, every Saturday on Mexico Cooks!. I've lived in Mexico for half my life and am honored to be a citizen of this country; how could anyone question whether I love it here? This is my home. Precisely because I love my home, I refuse to ignore the elephant in Mexico's living room. That elephant has been figuratively sitting on the couch in Mexico since the end of 2006, when Pres. Calderón inaugurated his misguided war on drugs. NOT to call attention to it is a tremendous disservice to this country. NOT to call attention to it is to lead astray anyone considering moving to Morelia or any of the other Mexican cities and states where narco-violencia is real and frequent. Reality does not always look like rosy cantera buildings hung with hot-pink bugambilia; reality sometimes looks like a severed human head stuffed into a styrofoam cooler. Reality does not always look like smiling natives dressed in ropa típica; reality sometimes looks like an innocent three-year-old killed by grenade shrapnel.

Don't blame the messenger, Oscar. Tough love is just that: tough, and love.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Reefhound


Feb 7, 2010, 11:13 AM

Post #41 of 65 (11525 views)

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Here's an interesting article in the paper today.

Amid drug war, Mexico less deadly than decade ago


Decapitated bodies dumped on the streets, drug-war shootings and regular attacks on police have obscured a significant fact: A falling homicide rate means people in Mexico are less likely to die violently now than they were more than a decade ago.

I think it would be unfair to blame the perception and image of violence on media sensationalism, though. The media are whores - they just give the people what they want. I think the people want it because, in general, how we die is important.

We know on an intellectual level that it doesn't matter, that we are no less dead because we die one way than if we die another, dead is dead. But we have psychologically prepared ourselves to accept death by heart attack or car accident or such while we abhor the idea of being murdered. We also abhor death where our bodies are not left intact - eaten by a shark, cut in pieces or beheaded, or never found. But if we must die, we want it to be sudden and painless. So it's not just the raw numbers of people being killed by the narco gangs that affect us so dramatically, it's the way many of the bodies have been tortured, faces sewn onto soccer balls, heads found in coolers, etc.


Brian

Feb 7, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #42 of 65 (11516 views)

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That article is interesting on several levels. It also can be seen in the context of the Secretary of Tourism's current strategy to enlist expats and famous people who have investments in Mexico to tout it's advantages. Here is what I wrote a few days ago on a different message board:

"Those who know me are aware that about 3 1/2 years ago, my wife and I had to return to live in the United States because of medical reasons. Since that time much has changed throughout the Republic of Mexico and San Miguel as well. Unfortunately, many negative events, and the reporting about such, has caused tourist revenue to plummet contributing the economic crisis. I now live in an area of Austin where many of my neighbors are academics and other professionals. The following article reminded me of a talk I had with my next door neighbor a couple of months ago. He began the conversation by referring to our ten year residency in Mexico and saying that his company was bidding for a contract with the Mexican department of tourism to mount a campaign to combat the negative publicity. He asked me if I had any ideas. I surprised him when I asked if he were dealing directly with Elizondo. He said yes and I let him know something about the tactics which had been tried in earlier years to bring more tourists to Baja California (specifically Tijuana/Rosarito) before that area became a complete desmadre. I told him I was sorry but that I didn't think the tourists would return until the negative publicity stopped and that could only happen in one of two ways. Either the Mexican press would have to stop reporting about the crime wave or the Mexican people would have to force their government to stifle the criminal activities from occurring in the first place. In the case of Rosarito, both Elizondo and Mayor Torres tried to launch a series of 'fluff articles" about the benefits of visiting the area. It hasn't worked and now, there is anecdotal evidence , that Baja officials have been reducing access to the press as well. Cover-ups and gilding the lily rarely succeed. I don't know why they keep trying.

I haven't asked my neighbor, and he hasn't volunteered, whether he got the contract or not. I sure hope he wasn't responsible for Elizondo's latest strategy. He wants the "celebrity-types" in San Miguel to publicize what a wonderful place it is and to encourage Americans and other foreigners to come on down. That is well and good. But will he and the Mexican government, though, be as willing to accept input, and yes, criticism about the lack of transparency in matters of public safety? The meeting next week with Chief Avila may provide a clue."

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/...amp;article=025n3eco

Brian


Peter


Feb 8, 2010, 7:09 AM

Post #43 of 65 (11470 views)

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I think it is a given that Mexico may not be the safest country to visit. Most of us know that from the start but decide to come here anyway. In many respects Mexico offers its people more personal liberty than in the US, but for that freedom one must accept the chaos that accompanies it. It is a trade-off for the individual to weigh its merits.

Reality does not always look like rosy cantera buildings hung with hot-pink bugambilia; reality sometimes looks like a severed human head stuffed into a styrofoam cooler.

I´ll stick my neck out and offer without proven statistics that it is about a million times more likely one would experience the pink cantera rather than the severed head. However, if severed heads and faces sewn onto soccer balls were open as public exhibits I believe those attractions would find their own niche for tourism. I would not suggest Morelia do such, but it could give quite an economic boost to some small pueblo that has fallen on hard times. If that is a tad too gory then I might suggest a parade of rateros around the town´s glorietta could make for a heart-warming attraction.


(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 8, 2010, 7:10 AM)


arbon

Feb 8, 2010, 7:48 AM

Post #44 of 65 (11460 views)

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"In many respects Mexico offers its people more personal liberty than in the US, but for that freedom one must accept the chaos that accompanies it. It is a trade-off for the individual to weigh its merits."

Yes that is true, in Mexico as well as in other places, you are free to put the "Cart in front of the Horse".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Brian

Feb 8, 2010, 8:03 AM

Post #45 of 65 (11457 views)

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A big problem in comparing violent crime rates between countries and individual cities is in how reports are classified. Residents of SMA recently learned that distinction. Even though there was a report of 12 kidnappings in town last year. The current chief of police, however, states that for record keeping purposes, only two of them have been classified as sequestros because they have resulted in denucias at the Ministerio Publico. The other 10 are listed as "rumors" because the victims' families have chosen not to go through that formality. Murders (as English language readers use the term) are also reported differently than they were ten years ago before Calderon's war on the cartels began. A new crime classification now exists known as "levantones". These are separate from kidnappings where the victim is deprived of freedom and held for variable periods of time until a ransom is paid. Levantones occur is two vastly different ways, though. One example is what used to be called an "express kidnapping" where the victim is snatched and made to withdraw funds from an ATM until being released usually the same day. The other victims of levantones are those whose tortured bodies are found encobijados with narcomensajes stapled on them. Thus statistically the rate of kidnappings and murders could be reported as less than in times past because of this new catchall classification of levantones. I wrote elsewhere about the Mexican government possibly trying to control the press by obfuscation. This article seems to be a good example right down to the sweet lady in Cabo San Lucas. They want the readers to extrapolate her sense of security to other areas. The Secretary of Tourism needs to be reminded of the old saying "Honesty is the best policy".


Reefhound


Feb 8, 2010, 8:53 AM

Post #46 of 65 (11445 views)

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However, if severed heads and faces sewn onto soccer balls were open as public exhibits I believe those attractions would find their own niche for tourism.

Reminds of a news article I read a few weeks ago about a former gang member starting a company in LA offering "tours" of gang land. He has secured agreements from the gangs to leave his tourists alone so he loads them up on a bus and drives them through the back alley turf of the various gangs. They visit various "attractions" and even stop at places to take pics of the graffiti art. He explains the history of the gangs and tells all about life in the ghetto.



Reefhound


Feb 8, 2010, 8:56 AM

Post #47 of 65 (11443 views)

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I was discussing it with a friend who said he doesn't buy it at all, doesn't pass the smell test. He has no evidence but is firmly convinced that any "reduction" in crime there is the result of reduced reporting of crime. As he put it "when you're beaten by a street thug you report it, when you're beaten by the mafia you keep your mouth shut".


Brian

Feb 8, 2010, 9:37 AM

Post #48 of 65 (11431 views)

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On the surface this is very positive and encouraging article but it should be
evaluated carefully. Sometimes it blends the word "Mexico" to be the country and
elsewhere it means D.F. as citizens do. Most people who have been down there for
a length of time would agree that the nation's capital is much safer than in
times past. One rarely reads much about violent crime there anymore whereas ten
years ago, one needed to take extreme caution. Like NYC, it is a much safer
place than it once was. Unfortunately, the real problems are occurring outside
the capital now.


Peter


Feb 8, 2010, 3:44 PM

Post #49 of 65 (11379 views)

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It seems the post I was responding to has been removed. But here is my reply.

What I detest most is when regurgitation of death and mayhem is thrown out irresponsibly making a new onlooker feel that to get from the border to his/her destination, he/she must maneuver through cataclysmic warfare trenches of to get there…….unreal..

*********

I had a similar ¨unreal¨ feeling when I read the account of one forum member´s recent annual trek south when he decided to use the new Arco Norte instead of his usual coast route in order to avoid the perils of traversing the backroads of Michoacán. I thought it may have been he was just curious about how that new route felt to drive or tired of the tedium of his usual route and didn´t mind following the trend to sensationalize a bit to justify doing something different.

It could be that some of our forum members and seasoned ex-pats really are concerned and justifiably taking extreme precautions in these turbulent times. And it has occurred to me it is my relative naivete of having been here less than half a decade that I am taking unnecessary risks by venturing out my front door. Worse, that I continue throwing caution to the wind and continue taking my monthly excursions to Pátzcuaro and points beyond.

I recently made a trip out to the coast, and now in retrospect see the danger I could have faced if things had turned out differently. I realize how close I came to being ambushed and shudder now to reflect back on what could have occurred if I had been less lucky. I was travelling with a friend out on the coast highway of Michoacán several miles north of Playa Azul when I slowed for a tope as I was approaching a small coastal pueblo. All of a sudden a rope was pulled up blocking my escape, and was then approached by two youths who wanted my money. I could see other people along side of the road watching all this and it appeared they were in on it also, and at that time I realized there were too many of them for us to overpower if it came to that.

Thinking quickly, I reached into my pocket and extracted 10 pesos and quickly surrendered it to these two youths who were at this time at the window of my vehicle. I handed over my change, seeing the people gathered at the side of the road and what appeared to be ribbons and balloons, but knowing what I know now, ever the wiser, could have been disembodied heads held together by a bloody rope, but I care not reflect back on this incident. Perhaps by sheer luck the two ten-year-old girls smiled at me and said ¨gracias¨ then lowered the rope and let me be on my way. It could have been a lot worse.


(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 8, 2010, 3:51 PM)


tashby


Feb 8, 2010, 4:05 PM

Post #50 of 65 (11367 views)

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It's all fun and games until it's your head on that balloon, eh?

(Oh wait. I'm channeling someone....)

It's a dangerous life, it's a dangerous country, it's a dangerous world. Eyes open, head on, pick your tolerance level. And good luck everyone.


esperanza

Feb 8, 2010, 4:23 PM

Post #51 of 65 (16252 views)

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Quote
...It could be that some of our forum members and seasoned ex-pats really are concerned and justifiably taking extreme precautions in these turbulent times. And it has occurred to me it is my relative naivete of having been here less than half a decade that I am taking unnecessary risks by venturing out my front door. Worse, that I continue throwing caution to the wind and continue taking my monthly excursions to Pátzcuaro and points beyond...Perhaps by sheer luck the two ten-year-old girls smiled at me and said ¨gracias¨ then lowered the rope and let me be on my way. It could have been a lot worse.


You know, I am getting very tired of being the designated doomsday crier around here as well as being the butt of jokes. What is it that some of you don't (or won't) understand about organized crime and narco-violencia in today's Mexico? Where did you read in any of my posts that I (for one) am "taking extreme precautions in these turbulent times"? Why is it that some MexConnecters fail to understand that the war on Mexico's drug cartels has taken an enormous toll on life in Mexico, a toll that includes criminals, innocent bystanders, government officials, the Mexican army, its police at every level, et cetera? Some of you resemble a mule wearing blinders: the mule can't see what's on either side of him, so therefore it doesn't exist. What's straight ahead of him is all there is.

Like other Morelianos who post here, I myself have never SEEN Morelia's violence. I didn't SEE a grenade explode in Plaza Melchor Ocampo--but I know that it happened, on September 15, 2008. I didn't SEE the AK-47 gun battle in July 2009, five blocks from my house, but I HEARD it happen. I didn't SEE the sub-director of Public Security and two of his bodyguards shot to death with high-powered rifles, just three blocks from my house (along with a civilian riding in a combi), but I know that it happened. I have never SEEN a three-year-old baby's life snuffed out by shrapnel in a north-central Morelia colonia--but I know it happened, shortly before Christmas 2009. I didn't SEE the head in the cooler in Quiroga a couple of weeks ago, but I know that it existed.

My life in Morelia has not changed--this morning I went to the Centro Histórico for a doctor's appointment, had breakfast with friends at the Hotel Casino, went to visit a friend who lives on Calle Amado Nervo, went grocery shopping, came home, cooked comida. No extreme precautions--no precautions of any kind were necessary.

But don't you ever feel sad about the situation in Mexico today? Doesn't it seem strange to act as if nothing is wrong in the country you choose to live in--when a LOT is wrong?

Go ahead, make your jokes. And by all means, keep your heads in the sand.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Brian

Feb 8, 2010, 4:35 PM

Post #52 of 65 (16248 views)

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"But don't you ever feel sad about the situation in Mexico today? Doesn't it seem strange to act as if nothing is wrong in the country you choose to live in--when a LOT is wrong? "

I think that the reality is that the gringos and the Mexicans lead parallel lives in the country. It speaks volumes that one group (which is relatively unscathed by the violence) would be so narcissistic as to view the situation in the country only through it's own experiences. But that is what they do and what they write home about...


Reefhound


Feb 8, 2010, 5:18 PM

Post #53 of 65 (16230 views)

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Peter, things could have been much worse in the scenario you described, in many different ways. The first thing most would think of is to imagine a scene where the driver was robbed or beaten or abducted or killed. But in a climate of fear there could be other consequences as well. Imagine someone else, someone much more fearful and prone to panic, driving a car and stopped by that rope. They may have sped into the rope causing serious injury to the kids holding it or shot a couple of school girls in desperation.


Manuel Dexterity

Feb 8, 2010, 5:21 PM

Post #54 of 65 (16231 views)

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Who is going to start shooting? Mexicans know exactly what they are dealing with. Gringos don't carry guns. Who have I left out?

And the kids drop the rope for all cars that decide not to stop.


(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on Feb 8, 2010, 5:34 PM)


Anonimo

Feb 9, 2010, 4:58 AM

Post #55 of 65 (16196 views)

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Our lives here are shaped to some degree by the violence. Recently, we cancelled a trip to Zamora because of violence there. (There were other factors as well, but that was the main one.)

An amiga Norteamericana wanted to go to a fiesta near Tócuaro last week. We would have been getting home after dark. I discouraged our participation for that reason.

I wasn't present for the shootout at the Policía Federal Station at one of Pátzcuaro's busiest intersections, but I would see the bullet-riddled exterior everytime we would drive by. (It's since been repaired, but it appears unoccupied.)

A head-in-the-sand outlook which drives me to despair is when friends and online posters break out crime statistics for U.S. cities, e.g; "Washington DC is x times worse, so we must be safe in Michoacán."

My opinion is that when the bullet or grenade fragment hits you, statistics are meaningless. But realistically, we have chosen to live here, and we go about most of our daily lives without a pervasive sense of fear.

Last week as we were driving past Tzintzuntzan we came to an Army checkpoint. We slowed, but we weren't stopped for inspection. Just then, two Army vehicles came barrelling down the highway, lights flashing, in pursuit of some other vehicle. As we pulled off onto the verge, I was somewhat shaken. But in the end, nothing bad happened to us.

A year or so ago, we were in the house, preparing to drive to Pátzcuaro. I heard some noise out in our very rural street. (we are the last occupied house near the end of the pavement.) I went outside to open the gate, and to my surprise, there was an Army patrol on foot. Greetings were exchanged and I was asked a few questions, such as "Everything o.k. here? Any problems?"
Apparently, they were searchng for arms.

The outcome was reassuring, but the experience brought some of the Drug War reality right to our doorstep.



Saludos,
Anonimo


Hound Dog

Feb 9, 2010, 6:28 AM

Post #56 of 65 (16188 views)

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Peter´s posting about travel in Mexico is the perfect example of misguided posturing that, while well intentioned, demonstrates why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

First, we have this excerpt:

had a similar ¨unreal¨ feeling when I read the account of one forum member´s recent annual trek south when he decided to use the new Arco Norte instead of his usual coast route in order to avoid the perils of traversing the backroads of Michoacán. I thought it may have been he was just curious about how that new route felt to drive or tired of the tedium of his usual route and didn´t mind following the trend to sensationalize a bit to justify doing something different.

Then this:

I recently made a trip out to the coast, and now in retrospect see the danger I could h
ave faced if things had turned out differently. I realize how close I came to being ambushed and shudder now to reflect back on what could have occurred if I had been less lucky. I was travelling with a friend out on the coast highway of Michoacán several miles north of Playa Azul when I slowed for a tope as I was approaching a small coastal pueblo. All of a sudden a rope was pulled up blocking my escape, and was then approached by two youths who wanted my money. I could see other people along side of the road watching all this and it appeared they were in on it also, and at that time I realized there were too many of them for us to overpower if it came to that.

I, the Dawg, am the milquetoast who elected recently to take the Arco Norte route from my home in Ajijic on Lake Chapala to my home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas rather than take the alternative route I had tentatively planned through Uruapan to Lázaro Cardenas and down the coast through Oaxaca State to Chiapas. Normally we drive to Chiapas via Mexico City and Veracruz state, not the much longer coastal route as stated by Peter. This was to be a one-time sightseeing trip. We decided that the coastal route was of only marginal interest and since we drive between Jalisco and Chiapas several times a year over various routes, we felt, with the unpredictable, seemingly random and often irrational violence taking place these days in Michoacan and the recent escalation in that violence - much of which has affected innocent bystanders in terrible and unprecedented ways - it would be prudent to postpone the coastal sojourn until our planned return to Lake Chapala in May of this year. Our decision was further based on the fact that we normally drive through the heart of Mexico city but wanted to try that new Arco Norte to ascertain if it were a feasible alternative to driving through the city.

Now, we have lived in Mexico since early 2001 and have driven countless kilometers over autopistas and back roads all over most of central and southern Mexico and we have, as a result, found ourselves in some uncomfortable situations in wilderness and urban areas including having found ourselves in the midst of a narco shootout in downtown Palenque, Chiapas with bullets flying all about us with our continued existence dependent upon the trajectory of a random bullet aimed at various combatants. We have, over time become, not more timid but wiser. I can assure Peter and others who might be reading this, that weighing the rewards of back-country travel in a war zone versus the dangers inherent in a motorist's isolaton in areas where law enforcement is marginal, non-existent or subject to local corruption is a recommended exercise. As one who lived in and traveled the back roads and woods of South Alabama and Northern California all my life, each area with many dangers for the uninitiated, I commend the old movie Deliverence to folks who tend to underestimate the dangers in traveling about in someone elses isolated stomping grounds.

As to the last comment about the young folks with their rope across the road and the question as to whether the motorist should respect that seemingly informal and random roadblock and stop to buy something or pay tribute to some cause, Dawg has witnessed many of these random "rope tricks" which are not uncommon in Southern Mexico and knows when to stop and pay an informal toll to proceed or to simply keep driving and expect the offending rope to be dropped upon the car's approach. It takes experience to figure this out, Peter, but let me give you a hint. If the rope is being held by cute little girls surrounded by other young people and selling local products, just keep going. They will drop the rope at the last minute. If, on the other hand, the rope is being held by burley Zapatistas or local villagers supporting a village cause and the rope holders are surrounded by menacing locals or other Zapatistas, stop and pay your reasonably assumed toll to proceed but be neither niggardly nor overly generous in what you proffer. You don´t want to seem either disrespectful or naive.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Feb 9, 2010, 6:54 AM)


Peter


Feb 9, 2010, 8:46 AM

Post #57 of 65 (16149 views)

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Sorry to mis-characterize what your ¨usual¨ route is, I assumed you had made the coastal run before but I had heard you mention driving through Mexico City as well. You did, however, respond as I had hoped, with tales of road trips witnessing true dangers and the cautionary notes on how one might more prudently proceed in these circumstances. You correctly assumed you were the ¨seasoned ex-pat¨ to whom I was referring; I thought I was being obvious in that regard but did inadvertantly rattle someone else I hadn´t intended. I think I judged you as thick-skinned enough to weather the jibe, and I do earnestly thank you for your informative response. I did have the occasion once to make the drive from Uruapan to Ajijic; it´s a pleasant drive on a nice mountain highway and I would consider it the least of my concerns in making the coast run to Chiapas. I admit, though, I did that some time back in the pre-Calderón War years.

I think you did pick up on though I was being facetious about the ¨rope trick¨ scam that I do recognize there are some dangers there, and that though these stops are common enough there is the danger of a ruse to catch the unwary in this scam. As Reefhound points out, there is a danger to these girls in more extreme instances. For that perhaps I unwisely encouraged them by giving a donation, though in this instance and the other times I´ve been stopped this way they were not selling anything but seemed it was a local or family celebration and I was happy to contribute.

For Esperanza - You´ve probably realized by now I was not referring to you. You don´t mention it now but I seem to recall in the not too distant past gunfire broke out near your home, near enough to put up the danger flags. Although I had made referrence to you in another post it was because you are a fairly close neighbor and things did come too close to home for you. I wasn´t making light of your situation, it is understandable your having been there, but another responder to my post pulled you in, out of my comfort zone for that type of comment. I apologize for being party to that before the fact.

My point, in the latter part of post, was that for all the worry things are frequently innoccuous situations, though one must be careful at all times. And all may not be as peaceful as it seems.

In the extreme unfortunate, and hopefully extremely unlikely event that something would happen to you, I offer no comfort in saying it will likely come at a time and place you least expect it. God forbid.


Hound Dog

Feb 9, 2010, 10:53 AM

Post #58 of 65 (16121 views)

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A reasonable rejoinder, Peter. I think we all learn if we hold civil discussions.

Actually, the drive from Lake Chapala to Chiapas via Lázaro Cardenas and the Guerrero and Oaxaca coasts is a very long and often arduous drive no doubt. We´ve never driven the coast between Puerto Angel, Oaxaca and Manzanillo, Colima but when we do we´ll report our experiences on the Traveling Mexico forum.

Just for those of you who may be contemplating a drive from the Central Mexico Highlands to Chiapas, here is what you need to know:

The shortest and fastest drive is from Lake Chapala or other nearby points in the Central Highlands to Mexico City via Queretaro or Morelia and the Toluca libramiento and through the interior circuit to Puebla, Orizaba and down the Veracruz interior coastal plain to Tuxtla Gutierriez and beyond. The new Arco Norte bypassing Mexico City is longer but takes about about the same amount of time because one avoids the city traffic. My second choice, which is considerably longer is to head from Puebla City to Oaxaca City and then down through the Isthmus of Tehuantapec to Tuxtla Gutierrez and beyond. We often go that way because we have friends living near Oaxaca City and like to visit and stay with them on occasion.


Oscar2

Feb 9, 2010, 12:55 PM

Post #59 of 65 (16089 views)

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Quote
Like other Morelianos who post here, I myself have never SEEN Morelia's violence. I didn't SEE a grenade explode in Plaza Melchor Ocampo--but I know that it happened, on September 15, 2008. I didn't SEE the AK-47 gun battle in July 2009, five blocks from my house, but I HEARD it happen. I didn't SEE the sub-director of Public Security and two of his bodyguards shot to death with high-powered rifles, just three blocks from my house (along with a civilian riding in a combi), but I know that it happened. I have never SEEN a three-year-old baby's life snuffed out by shrapnel in a north-central Morelia colonia--but I know it happened, shortly before Christmas 2009. I didn't SEE the head in the cooler in Quiroga a couple of weeks ago, but I know that it existed.


SP, the passion in which you lay your reminders on our laps is respected because we know it’s out of a sense of concern and personal remorse. I respect this and your desire to perhaps fix/change possible future outcomes by making us safe. The big question that puzzles me and probably others is how these reminders, as well as the media’s is suppose to help us do this?


Everyone has the right to an opinion such as you just voiced and with all due respect, with no offense intended to anyone, especially you, as an MC’er for close to half a decade, I will try to express my opinion, unencumbered, if possible!


The media is a “business” and they hone their proficiency at making headlines sizzle for a reason and I think we all know why, yes, to escalate newspapers sales so there advertisers will stay with an industry whose increased circulation will disseminate a greater volume of ads they pay for. I don’t mean this to be a 101 class in newspaper marketing but we should be well “aware” that this exists and it’s just the beginning. The TV news business is no different.


Now, when heinous acts against people, Morelianos in particular, when I as an MC’er get wind of this, because of living and going to Mexico for over 45 years, much of the heartfelt memories its soil has given me, out of remorse, outrage and a sense of being violated, revolting against this insanity makes me very concerned and times livid...



The question is how does one revolt? Personally and this is just my thing, I would on MC publicly reflect upon the positive for the sake of new onlookers wanting to visit Mexico. The good, the joy, the good folks I’ve met, the travel logs such as Peter, Dawg and others provide, the friends made and kept, the wonderful food, the simple 20 dollar mordida that would have cost me such a hassle in the states, the wonderful times I’ve had in Morelia and the rest of the Republic and more…


For all of this and more, I would purposely downplay the negatives on MC, knowing well these are unsettling times and the uncontrollable press will give them all the sorted details, negatively impacting the blemish given Mexico, relentlessly. This does not mean that I’d lie about the turmoil but for the benefit of prospective MC onlookers, perhaps I can share with them something a bit better, more of the positive, instead of the ongoing black eye routinely provided by the media. Dissenters are expected but if you are opposed to positive reinforcement, do so in terms of constructive criticism which simply means, if you disagree, do so with an offer of another positive alternative.


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2010, 3:04 PM

Post #60 of 65 (16068 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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The big question that puzzles me and probably others is how these reminders, as well as the media’s is suppose to help us do this?

Simple - by reminding you not to become complacent or delude yourself into seeing things as you would like them to be rather than how they are.


For all of this and more, I would purposely downplay the negatives on MC, knowing well these are unsettling times and the uncontrollable press will give them all the sorted details, negatively impacting the blemish given Mexico, relentlessly. This does not mean that I’d lie about the turmoil


A lie by omission is still a lie. Why would someone interested in Mexico be looking here on MC when surely they have already heard all about Mexico in the media? Obviously, they understand the media is about ratings (don't be so elitist to think you can see the truth of the media but the unwashed masses cannot) and that a news report only provides a sensational glimpse, one small pixel of the larger image. They are here looking for the whole picture, looking for honest information from everyday people not trying to sell them something. If they just wanted the rosy view they would order the tourist brochures.

Definitely speak of all the positives. (I'm not sure where you're even coming from with that as I've seen no shortage of positives discussed here.) But also speak of the negatives. Lay it all out there and let people decide for themselves. If they decide Mexico is not the place for them, no skin off your back. Or is it?


esperanza

Feb 9, 2010, 3:31 PM

Post #61 of 65 (16063 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Oscar, the definition of remorse is "a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs". Why would I have remorse over what is going on these days in Mexico? I haven't done anything wrong.

And I agree 100% with Reefhound's analysis of the situation, and Brian's. I think that your reasoning is very much mistaken.

If anyone has anything further to say on this thread, you have till Wednesday morning to say it. After 9AM on February 10, this thread will be locked.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Oscar2

Feb 9, 2010, 5:40 PM

Post #62 of 65 (16040 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Quote
Simple - by reminding you not to become complacent or delude yourself into seeing things as you would like them to be rather than how they are.


Your opinion of my complacency and being delusional is your suggestion or is it another runoff the mill copout that you have no suggestion accept to say something for the sake of saying nothing.


When you state SIMPLE, does this mean seeing things the way they are to who, the guy next door, the way the news puts it or is it just possible, one can see things outside the box, outside the accustomed way of accepting things as life is in the external, the way we have grown accustomed to being in lockstep with those we “choose” to feel comfortable with?


Are you suggesting that truth or the way things are, is the way someone convinces you what truth is and/or the way things are? Should I or anyone else, see things perhaps differently than you, do you automatically consider them delusional? What is real and what is delusional and how did you come to that conclusion……thought….maybe? Someone on this forum once said, don’t believe everything you think.

Quote
Definitely speak of all the positives. (I'm not sure where you're even coming from with that as I've seen no shortage of positives discussed here.) But also speak of the negatives. Lay it all out there and let people decide for themselves. If they decide Mexico is not the place for them, no skin off your back. Or is it?


Your suggestion is suppositional. It’s implies to leave things exactly the way they are. Its popular opinion right now that we are in crises, some shriek we are in a catastrophic war and your saying that the only good window on Mexico provided by MC of those living or having lived in Mexico should parrot the news accounts of what is going on in “their” world, as if they shared their same bed? I don’t think so. In essence, according to your quote, your suggestion is to do nothing, don’t change a thing. Okay, we’ll chalk it up as your suggestion…..next? May I suggest we not turn this into a right wrong scenario? Let’s try and keep it clean and above board, not a mental brilliance contest.


If you will, may I make a suggestion, I don't care to rattle muskets, if you wish to provide a constructive positive suggestion without being confrontational, please do so and offer a different positive suggestion. If you can’t possibly conceive of anything to throw into the pot, say nothing. A nothing count means either there is nothing to suggest and/or we are still possibly stymied.


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2010, 6:05 PM

Post #63 of 65 (16033 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Your opinion of my complacency and being delusional is your suggestion or is it another runoff the mill copout that you have no suggestion accept to say something for the sake of saying nothing.

Pot, kettle, black. I used "you" in the generic sense. It's not always about Oscar, whoever you are or think you are. I didn't even read the rest of your tireless pontificating as you're not worth the time.

Out.


Oscar2

Feb 9, 2010, 6:36 PM

Post #64 of 65 (16023 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Your replay and suggestion is as expected, thanks for the confirmation.


tonyburton / Moderator


Feb 9, 2010, 6:40 PM

Post #65 of 65 (16020 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Sorry, 'guys' but I'm not waiting for Esperanza's deadline tomorrow; thread is now locked. Enough has been said. Start another thread whenever you feel like it, provided the discussion is focused, and focused on Mexico.
 
 
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