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La Isla


Oct 30, 2009, 6:25 PM

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Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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As these two holidays approach, I find myself getting annoyed at all the attention Halloween gets in Mexico City, though Día de Muertos does seem to be holding its own. Here's an interesting article that discusses a survey just taken here asking which holiday Mexicans prefer:

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/636845.html .

The results made me fear less for the loss of one of the country's most unique celebrations! Not surprisingly, though, the gringo holiday is favored by Mexican from the northern part of the country, the upper classes and young people.

I'm eager to read everyone's comments and observations...

Anonimo

Oct 31, 2009, 1:01 AM

Post #2 of 32 (5124 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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My observations are that in the Pátzcuaro, Michoacán area, Día de Los Muertos is very strong and widely observed, while Hallowéen is just a chance for some (not all) kids to dress up, go around the neighborhood and collect some dinerito and some dulces. We are welcoming them here tonight, in our rinconcito de Michoacán.

The next night, the families will go go to the panteón to stay at the graves of the difuntos. (The local panteón is small, harder to get to than others, and not an attractant for tourists and expats fascinated with Día de Muertos.)

So, here at least, enjoying Hallowéen does not preclude observing the traditional Día de los Muertos. Something to consider is that many Mexicans have lived and worked in the United States, have seen television, and cultural exchange of this type is inevitable.

Saludos,
Anonimo

gpkgto

Oct 31, 2009, 8:51 AM

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Irapuato (estado de Guanajuato), which oddly enough is the source of the alfeñiques you see in Patzcuaro (this according to one of the owners of a stall in the Patzcuaro mercado), has a mercado every year just for D de los M. A recent story in the newspaper here said that this year there were 50 stands selling D de los M articles and 100 stands selling Halloween articles. Of course, all of the US based/originated businesses, e.g. Walmart, are loaded with Halloween junk. The candy lobby is very powerful in the US. The people I know here pay no attention to D de los M--but Irapuato is not a traditional Mexican city (although it was founded by Don Vasco de Quiroga in 1547).

La Isla


Oct 31, 2009, 10:01 AM

Post #4 of 32 (5066 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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In Reply To

So, here at least, enjoying Hallowéen does not preclude observing the traditional Día de los Muertos. Something to consider is that many Mexicans have lived and worked in the United States, have seen television, and cultural exchange of this type is inevitable.

Cultural exchange is inevitable, but in the case of Mexico and the US, it seems to go mostly from north to south and not vice-versa!

ken_in_dfw

Oct 31, 2009, 12:18 PM

Post #5 of 32 (5047 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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So, here at least, enjoying Hallowéen does not preclude observing the traditional Día de los Muertos. Something to consider is that many Mexicans have lived and worked in the United States, have seen television, and cultural exchange of this type is inevitable.

Cultural exchange is inevitable, but in the case of Mexico and the US, it seems to go mostly from north to south and not vice-versa!

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Living here in Dallas-Ft. Worth is like watching the metamorphosis of another Cd. de México on the plains of north Texas. The fastest growing segment of the grocery business caters to the Hispanic population, while carnecerías and pastelerías pop up on every corner like mushrooms after a big rain. Half of the city shuts down when a big fútbol match is on Telemundo. Fully one-third of the FM dial here now broadcasts en Español, and the big news recently was the scandal when México replaced its consul general, Enrique Hubbard, because he failed to clean up corruption in the consulate.

When México celebrates the Grito, our TV covers it. Rudo y Cursi, Y tu mamá también, Frida and Like Water for Chocolate have all played to packed movie houses here. There's a mad rush for tamales starting at Thansgiving and ending a few days before Christmas when the only way you're going to get one in this city is if you make them yourself.

Having just returned from a visit "back home" in the Arkansas Ozarks, the impact is even more striking. This is an area that once considered Catholics from Chicago to be a foreign culture! Trust me, when I was little, the only language being spoken up there was English. I was floored this time to see a very packed Pollo Campero inside the Rogers Arkansas Wal-Mart. The previous visit, I couldn't believe the number of Spanish-speaking radio stations blanketing the Ozark air waves. You can get three different kinds of mole and nopales (fresh, not canned) in little country stores for heavens sake!

Believe me, Mexican culture is being felt loud and clear up here. Cultural exchange does flow both ways across the border. And that's a good thing.

Ken

esperanza

Oct 31, 2009, 12:32 PM

Post #6 of 32 (5037 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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In 1981, when I first lived in Mexico (Tijuana), that city already felt Halloween's seductive presence. Kids dressed up (or not) and wandered around my very poor neighborhood knocking on doors and yelling, "Triqui triqui!"--not 'Trick or treat'. A small coin or a piece of hard candy satisfied them. The kids from more affluent Tijuana neighborhoods were schlepped across the border to neighboring San Ysidro or Chula Vista in search of better treats. In later years, vans filled with Mexican kids in costume showed up as far north as La Jolla, one of the far-northern, very wealthy San Diego communities.

During the years before I returned permanently to Mexico, I spent a great deal of time in la República. If I was in the interior during mid-to-late October, I noticed each year that there was more and more emphasis placed on Halloween doodads in supermarkets and dulcerías (candy shops). The more people from Mexico traveled to live and work in the USA, the more they came back with the appurtenances of the North of the Border holiday. The kids love it and the grownups support it. The new cry became, "Queremos Jaloguín! Queremos Jaloguín!" (We want Halloween! We want Halloween!)

I notice now that Jaloguín is a kids' holiday primarily in places where the Día de los Muertos has for years been little-celebrated. Not everywhere in Mexico keeps the traditional ways. Día de los Muertos is celebrated more or less traditionally in Michoacán and Oaxaca. Even in Michoacán and Oaxaca, visitors often think Muertos is more than anything a great chance for a mini-vacation and a reventón (big drunken blowout). Disrespect for indigenous tradition is rampant among many tourists, although foreign tourists are still curious about what's going on in the cemeteries during the night of November 1. Even in Pátzcuaro, heart of the Noche de Muertos celebrations in Michoacán, children currently wander the plazas carrying candle-lit carved calabazas (squash) asking for Jaloguín. Toss a small coin into the opening of the calabaza.

Elsewhere in Mexico, lip service is given to the old way of celebrating, but the new way often includes a perfunctory visit to the cemetery where loved ones are buried, a sigh and a shrug about the disappearance of the old ways, and a round or two or of chelas bien frías (ice cold beers) to toast los santos difuntos (the holy dead).

It's taken me quite a while to come to grips with Jaloguín in Mexico. I finally decided that it's not leaving--Jaloguín is here to stay. It can live side by side with el Día de los Muertos. Like many other Mexicans, I sigh and shrug and let it have its way. I don't like it, I try not to participate in it, but I'm afraid it's here for good.




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(This post was edited by esperanza on Oct 31, 2009, 12:37 PM)

TlxcalaClaudia

Oct 31, 2009, 12:56 PM

Post #7 of 32 (5027 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I'm curious... Are you even in USA La Isla?

richmx2


Oct 31, 2009, 1:07 PM

Post #8 of 32 (5022 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Mexico, like the U.S. and Canada, have always been syncretic cultures... Day of the Dead being a melding of traditional religious beliefs about the afterlife into a Christian framework. Come to think of it, Hallowe'en is rooted in Druidic and Roman Catholic syncretism, though few trick or treaters think of themselves as Druids or Roman Catholics.

Customs change and incorporate new ideas. Think of Mayan curandaros who use Coca-Cola in their rituals, or Anglo Texans who say it just isn't Christmas without tamales.


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La Isla


Oct 31, 2009, 2:45 PM

Post #9 of 32 (5000 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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In Reply To
I'm curious... Are you even in USA La Isla?

I´m from the US, from the East Coast, Philadelphia and New York City, but I've lived in Mexico City for over two years and have spent lots of time in Mexico since the summer of 1966.

ken_in_dfw

Oct 31, 2009, 7:08 PM

Post #10 of 32 (4974 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I completely agree, Rich. Cultures are living, breathing, changing things. And like I said, they flow back and forth across borders, which is a good thing.

I like Día de los Muertos, las Posadas, and all the pageantry surrounding Semana Santa. I hope that México and its people will continue to support the traditions that make this one of the world's great nations. So, in that sense, I support and understand Esperanza's position on the encroachment of Jaloguín.

But I also know that cultures have to grow, breathe, shake off the dust and move to stay alive. And that inevitably means change. So I wouldn't stand in the way of Jaloguín in Morelia, anymore than I would try to stop a Sunday fútbol match in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Ultimately, our cultures are stronger for the mixing.

Peter


Nov 1, 2009, 12:40 AM

Post #11 of 32 (4941 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I saw a number of folks out celebrating Halloween last night, dressed in costume and attending street celebrations, but no trick-or-treaters going door-to-door. I expect this to be the usual three-day celebration I've observed here in past years only now a little less centralized for secruity concerns.

The big chain markets have Halloween candy for sale but the booths that pop-up around town have the Dia de los Muertos homemade style sugar figurines and other traditional items. Of course this is in Michoacán and perhaps the country's biggest and/or well-known celebration occurs on Janitzio Island in Lago de Pátzcuaro just a short distance from me here in Morelia.

Anonimo

Nov 1, 2009, 12:45 AM

Post #12 of 32 (4941 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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My sister-in-law, in San José, California, emailed me an article about Día de Los Muertos there. That it was celebrated there didn't surprise me.

I would think that it's observed or at least noted in other areas of the U.S. where Mexicans have immigrated.

Saludos,
Anonimo

La Isla


Nov 1, 2009, 7:43 AM

Post #13 of 32 (4909 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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My sister-in-law, in San José, California, emailed me an article about Día de Los Muertos there. That it was celebrated there didn't surprise me.

I would think that it's observed or at least noted in other areas of the U.S. where Mexicans have immigrated.

I wonder who was celebrating Día de Muertos in San José, just the Mexican immigrant population or were Anglos also putting up ofrendas too?

sparks


Nov 1, 2009, 7:54 AM

Post #14 of 32 (4903 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I had a visit of about 20 kids last night but they all came at once, no more trickled thru. Had a mom or two with them - maybe for safety. The yelling at my gate was top of the lungs and unorganized so I'll ask what it was today

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

richmx2


Nov 1, 2009, 12:53 PM

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Re: [Anonimo] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Renee, at the woefully underrated "Hasta los gatos quieren zapatos", posted an informative and very good article on the revival (and/or survival) of Día de los muertos in California. For some reason, at times accessing the site pops up a "content warning", though I've never seen anything remotely close to pornography, violence or even more than an occasional cuss word on the site and it's safe for general audiences.


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Bethie

Nov 1, 2009, 2:18 PM

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Re: [richmx2] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I just returned from Tampico and Panuco and we saw the wonderful celebration on Friday night with dancers dressed as ghosts and little children being given candy, adults having free coffee and breads. Lots and lots of music in the city square. I cried knowing i would have to leave in the morning. I love the celebration and could see in the local stores costumes for sale for the children. The world gets smaller everday because of TV and the internet. But, children are children every where and for one night I saw a little of both cultures joining together for celebration, and mourning of loved ones who have pasted. It was truly beautiful. (It is hard for me to sometimes put into words what I really mean, but I hope you get my understanding of the event, I will think about it for a very long time).

husker

Nov 2, 2009, 8:51 AM

Post #17 of 32 (4795 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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"Elsewhere in Mexico, lip service is given to the old way of celebrating, but the new way often includes a perfunctory visit to the cemetery where loved ones are buried, a sigh and a shrug about the disappearance of the old ways, and a round or two or of chelas bien frías (ice cold beers) to toast los santos difuntos (the holy dead)."

Not so in Catemaco,Veracruz... I saw nor had trick or treater's. The entire town has been filled with preparation. Last night was filled with family's going with flowers etc.

morgaine7


Nov 2, 2009, 10:01 AM

Post #18 of 32 (4780 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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A friend and I were in the La Paz tourist zone early on Halloween evening and saw kids in costume making the rounds of the shops and restaurants along the Malecón. Some even ventured into Applebee's, where the employees were also in costume. It looked like places that were open were prepared with handouts. We couldn't help grinning at the practice of trick-or-treating at businesses! In my residential neighborhood, not a single child has ever come to the house on Halloween, although a couple neighbor kids have come on Día de Muertos. I always have something to distribute just in case, but unless some little beggars turn up tonight, I'll end up eating a whole jar of Snickers Minis myself.

Kate

richmx2


Nov 2, 2009, 11:22 AM

Post #19 of 32 (4756 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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My favorite cultural melding Day of the Dead experience was the little Conde Dracula I saw on the Mexico City Zocalo who-- appropriate to Hallowe'en -- extorted candy from passers-by, then -- in true Chilango style -- turned not into a bat, but into an ambulante, selling, of course, candy!


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Sunnyvmx


Nov 2, 2009, 11:34 AM

Post #20 of 32 (4749 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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In Catemaco the panteon at the top of the hill was in celebration with families pouring in through the gate all with flower bouquets and candles to adorn the final resting places of their loved ones. The cemetary was filled with the smells of flowers and incense. The young and old were seated on and around the graves, talking in hushed tones while guitars strummed ballads welcoming those who have gone to walk among them for this one night. Many small fires burning fragrant earth materials were lit on the graves and smoking pails were swung about to dispel the smell of the dead. There was nothing haunting or eerie about being in cemetary filled with so much celebration and life. We stumbled respectfully throughout the grounds admiring one gravesite or crypt after another as friendly smiles followed our passing even allowing for our natural curiosity which try as we might it was painfully hard to hide. The main thoroughfare to the cemetary was lined with local people selling bread, peanuts, ice cream and flowers along with the impromptu "porch cafes" which remain as simple homes except for this one night only. We felt as though the whole town was participating and it was a joy to witness their strong family tradition. There was no Holloween here and I was glad.



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Gringal

Nov 2, 2009, 12:38 PM

Post #21 of 32 (4740 views)

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Re: [Sunny1] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Times in Ajijic:
On Saturday, starting at 4:30 a.m....cohetes, and more cohetes culminating in a huge celebration of pure noise in the Plaza. No kids trick or treating at our house, but they were hitting up the business folk. Free candy is free candy, after all.
Sight of the day yesterday: Man on bicycle heading for the cemetery, backpack spilling over with marigolds.

Looks like they're celebrating everything hereabouts.

tashby


Nov 2, 2009, 1:09 PM

Post #22 of 32 (4736 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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We live in Ajijic, so of course Halloween has grown into a tradition here.

But you know what? I always loved Halloween in the U.S. Little kids excitedly getting dressed up in costumes. Families going door to door to see if there's a treat waiting behind it. What's wrong with any of that? Halloween is just plain fun.

Cultural incursion? Sure. But whatever, I say. The version of Halloween we experienced at our house the other night felt a lot more like it did during the 1970's in the U.S. And besides, I grew up in the Western U.S. during those same years and there was plenty of Mexico available to me.....every day and everywhere.

Additionally, Dia de los Muertos is by no means absent here. Yesterday I walked a block down the street to a little tienda and bought a giant clump of marigolds to build an ofrenda to a recently departed loved one. On my way back, a fellow asked me if it was for the mantel and I said yes.

As far as I can tell, it's all good.

(One caveat: I do blow past the plastic pumkins, etc., at the local Walmart.)

(Okay no, two caveats: I can't bring myself to appreciate the coronas available throughout town.)

bournemouth

Nov 2, 2009, 1:13 PM

Post #23 of 32 (4730 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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The cohetes and celebration in the plaza Saturday was for the end of the month of the Rosary - the Virgin of the Rosary was taken from the Parish Church back to her usual resting place in the Chapel on the plaza that evening - Halloween was just a little side note to the real reason for the celebration.

tashby


Nov 2, 2009, 1:14 PM

Post #24 of 32 (4729 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I was writing when Gringal was posting I guess. Interesting, because we did get trick-or-treaters, which I failed to specifically mention. (DING-DONG: "¡Queremos Halloween!")

We live right in lower Ajijic, on the east side.

carlw

Nov 2, 2009, 1:40 PM

Post #25 of 32 (4723 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Indeed. I live in Old East Dallas and of late there has been much discontent because in a few areas new town homes have been built in and "white people" have been moving into the area. Some of the gangs have wanted to burn them down so no one can live in them. The official point of view is that blighted housing has been eradicated and the neighborhood is being improved while local opinion (me too) is that affordable housing has been destroyed and the neighborhoodness is being destroyed with it. Many of my older neighbors and the very youngest ones do not speak English and all of the stores are Spanish-language stores. One could easily believe he is in Mexico, walking through the neighborhood.

Zorba

Nov 3, 2009, 2:36 AM

Post #26 of 32 (1609 views)

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Re: [husker] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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"Not so in Catemaco,Veracruz... I saw nor had trick or treater's. The entire town has been filled with preparation. Last night was filled with family's going with flowers etc."

Of course ! Catemaco is full of witches ! Not surprising. You've chosen a great place to live (no sarcasm)!

Zorba

Nov 3, 2009, 2:46 AM

Post #27 of 32 (1606 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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For those of you not happy about having to endure US traditions and attitudes in Mexico...move south.

If you want to avoid the Yankee influence in Mexico, be sure to live south of Puerta Vallarta.
This would be central Mexico, not southern Mexico as a lot of people seem to think. Anybody living in Vallarta
and up is in Northern Mexico. A very different Mexico in my opinion and experience. The further north you go, the
more American influence of course. The further central and south, the more Mexican.

Catemaco is a very good example. Puebla, Oaxaca, Veracruz, Chiapas, Tabasco, etc etc.

If I were bold (and stupid enough) I might claim that most foreigners living in Mexico aren't actually living in
the "real" Mexico. But I would never say that because that would be a stupid and arrogant thing to say. What I can say
is that there are many Mexicos in Mexico. That is why it can be such a great country ! The feeling and vibe I got from
the Copper Canyon was totally different than Agua Azul or Michoacan. They are all Mexico in their own way. Wonderful!

Having said that, I found that the further north I went the more American influence there was and the less I liked it. No offense I hope !


(This post was edited by Zorba on Nov 3, 2009, 2:57 AM)

Gringal

Nov 3, 2009, 7:24 AM

Post #28 of 32 (1565 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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I like your attitude, Zorba.....and can you do that Greek dance, too?

Yes, there are many Mexicos, even within one town teeming with gringos. Some years ago, we lived in a house in one of the outlying colonias of San Miguel de Allende.....Colonia San Rafael. It was an almost 100% Mexican neighborhood, and a completely different flavor from the central area. Gave us a good opportunity to practice our pidgin Spanish.

That phrase "the real Mexico", when it comes from a supercilious expat, has an interestng twist, since most of them moved from the states, where there are so many "real" United States. Oh yes indeed, there's so much similarity between New York City and deepest Mississippi?? Yet, they are all the real deal, from "sea to shining sea". Like Mexico.

yucatandreamer


Nov 3, 2009, 8:30 AM

Post #29 of 32 (1547 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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In that same vein, I love hearing"I want to move to Mexico and live like a Mexican". I guess they want to live like a Mexican in the "real" Mexico.

Gringal

Nov 3, 2009, 8:38 AM

Post #30 of 32 (1543 views)

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Re: [yucatandreamer] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Hey...I want to live like a really rich Mexican from Guadalajara. Don't you? A lot of them have very cool wheels, too.

I know, slap my off the topic wrist. Adios.

richmx2


Nov 3, 2009, 10:34 AM

Post #31 of 32 (1519 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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The further central and south, the more Mexican.

OH? Miguel Covarrubius' 1946 "Mexico South" was the MEXICAN artist/anthropologist's look at a culture and region he considered alien to his own ...

The government of Mexico at one point considered leasing the Isthmus of Tehuanatepec and points south to the United States for a canal/rail crossing... reasoning that IT was not the "real Mexico"...

Many consider the Nahautl-speaking indigenous culture the "real Mexico"... which means the other 98 percent of Mexicans are unreal. Chiapas -- historically part of the Kingdom of Guatemala -- and only part of Mexico due to political issues in the 1820s has a different culture than other parts of Mexico -- is it "real" ...

The Yucatan had a strong separatist movement, the elites there figure IT was not the "real Mexico"....

... and so it goes.

Is FUTBOL -- coming from England not Mexican or Brazilian or Honduran or...

Is beisbol not Cuban, being a U.S. import?

Is banda music, rooted in German band music... or Danzon, an offshoot of Viennese waltzs and entering Mexico via Cuba... not Mexican music?

As to "Day of the Dead"... is a celebration in Venezuela or Peru (where there have been celebrations recently) then, not part of the "real Venezuela" or the "real Peru", seeing it's an imported Mexican custom?

Real cultures and real people are not frozen in time, but adapt and adjust, incorporating what real people find really meaningful to them.


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esperanza

Nov 3, 2009, 10:52 AM

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Re: [richmx2] Día de Muertos vs. Halloween?

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Given that the topic of this thread is "Día de Muertos vs. Halloween", we have drifted far afield. I'll lock this now, but please feel free to start a new topic. "The Real Mexico" makes for a great debate.




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