Crime and retirement in Mexico: a problem?
Update posted by Richard Ferguson February 4 2000
There are several web sites with security information for travelers and tourists. The ones that I am aware of are listed below. I urge people to review the information on these web sites, compare the recommendations of the various countries to each other, and compare the various government recommendations to any personal opinions expressed on the internet.
The four government web sites below include security and other travel information for virtually all the countries in the world, including each other.
USA - http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_4787.html
UK - http://193.114.50.10/travel/default.asp
Canada - http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/graphics/cosmos/cntry_e.htm
Australia - http://www.dfat.gov.au/consular/advice/
The Mexican government has their own web site on tourist security in Mexico - www.safemexico.com
The following web sites offer personal or other views on security.
Mexico Mike talks about security on Mexico's highways on www.mexicomike.com
Personal reports for some countries in latin america are available from the South American Explorer's club - www.samexplo.org
A commercial site with security information is www.realworldrescue.com
Some travel agents and some employees of large companies may have access to private security report services. Some travel web sites will also have some limited security information, such as www.latinamericatravel.com. Note that most good guidebooks will also discuss security, and may offer security advice specific to the town or area.
Posted by Brian J. Larkin on October 05, 1996
Crime in Mexico is on the upswing and has many tourists as well as Mexicans worried. The U.S. State Department has issued a warning to travelers regarding crime in Mexico. Those who subscribe to MEXICO 2000 receive dozens of report weekly in which drugs, murders, robberies and kidnappings figure prominently. The Mexican news groups such as soc.culture.Mexican,alt.Mexico, and rec.travel.latin-america regularly carry posting reporting on, asking about, and denying any danger from crime in Mexico.
AIM, in a recent issue on Cuernavaca, reported that retirees say they feel safe at home but are careful on the streets. In its current issue AIM notes that retirees and native residents in Morelia say they feel safe. The point is that crime is so much of an issue that AIM feels compelled to reassure its readers.Bringing this closer to home, Elizabeth and I and another couple who have been accompanying us to Mexico for the last few years were planning to drive in February from our home in D.C. to Juarez, Guanajuato, San Miguel,Oaxaca and over the mountains to Puerto Escondido. Our friends decided the other day that the dangers of diving in Mexico are too great and they will fly down and meet us in P.E.I am wondering how others here feel about this problem. Does the upsurge in crime affect anyone is thinking about retirement in Mexico? Does it ulterior plans in any way?
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 06, 1996
The current problems have not altered our long-term plans, but then again,retirement is 15+ years away for me. The increase in violence concerns memory in the sense that the Mexican people deserve better than a country that is becoming increasingly violent. As with so many times when violence occurs, the violence is turned against the closest people, one's friend sand colleagues, rather than against those who are responsible for the conditions that led to the despair.Glenna and I fully intend to go ahead with building our little house inTroncones, Guerrero.
We intend to pay fair wages for the labor and use local suppliers as much as possible. We hope that our little involvement in Mexico will be a contributor toward an economy that benefits people. We recognize however that our tiny amount of involvement is insignificant compared to the massive losses from the legitimate economy and from Mexicans in general because of serious structural flaws that promote the accumulation of vast wealth by a small number and vast poverty by others.This is not to say that the serious problems and the violence that has followed has not affected us. We will continue to observe what is going on.Few people wanted to retire into South Africa when it treated so many of its community so poorly.
I think that if the current problems are not resolved to the benefit of Mexicans, fewer people will feel comfortable with long-term or short-term plans involving Mexico.It's not much of a vacation or retirement if you take it by living in comfort among poverty, especially the unnecessarily impoverished.
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Brian J. Larkin on October 09, 1996
I appreciate your thoughtful response, Ernie, and would like to follow up with a few questions.As a result of your professional life in social services you are undoubtedly more sensitive than many to the increasing frailty of people as they age. Indeed after retirement the rate of increase in vulnerability becomes exponential. The sense of power and security felt or at least expressed by some who still play football is less noticeable in most 70-year-olds.While retirement lies many years ahead you are planning now for that time.
You say that the current [crime related] problems have not altered our long-term plans and that you fully intend to go ahead with building our little house in Troncones, Guerrero.has the upsurge in crime had any effect on your home design plans? For example, windows in many homes of the wealthy in Mexico (and poor in Washington, D.C.) are protected with grill work and others have elaborate and sophisticated sound and motion detection systems. Guard dogs are popular. Have you made any provisions in your home design to provide a greater measure of safety than you anticipated when you began planning?
In a particularly insightful observation you wrote, it's not much of a vacation or retirement if you take it by living in comfort among poverty,especially the unnecessarily impoverished.treating others fairly and with respect, paying fair wages and using local labor are sine qua non. The question is, while these behaviors are necessary are they sufficient?The insider/outsider factor is always present where aliens are involved.This phenomenon becomes increasingly important during times of social unrest. Living in Mexico, we are the outsiders, the aliens. I recall vividly and uncomfortably the anti-American sentiment in Mexico during the early 1960s following the Bay of Pigs.
I remember living in a small village 90 km. north of D.F. in 1961 and 1962 and the hostility I felt at the time.On July 25 1996, the A carried a story on unrest in Mexico."Business leaders in the state of Morelos have asked the government to deploy the army in order to restore public order. Lynchings by angry citizens and numerous robberies and murders have caused many to describe the important state as being "ungovernable." The National Chamber of Commerce in Cuernavaca has asked that soldiers be deployed in patrols in the major cities of Morelos so that commercial life can be restored and safety assured."Clearly the situation at this time in Mexico is not close to that of the60s. Nevertheless, it is a concern and I am not sure what its implications are for retirement...
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 11, 1996
Just the other day a friend asked me if I would really slow down when went to live in Mexico or if I would continue to be active in social work,labor, and political activities. I think my answer surprised her.My view is that when I am in Mexico, I have the privilege of being a guest in someone else's country. While I will continue to have the views that I have, I think it would be rude to tell others how they should run their affairs.
I would find it offensive if Americans bought land in Canada, then came here and tried to tell us how we should run our country. I don't want to do the same in spending time in Mexico. On the other hand, I hope that perhaps the way I conduct myself will be appreciated by those who appreciate fairness, honesty, equity, etc.
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 11, 1996:
We haven't made any specific security plans based on recent events in Mexico. We don't have any plans for motion detectors, alarm systems, etc.Troncones is about 40 km outside of Zihuatanejo and doesn't have telephone service, so an alarm system wouldn't likely be very useful anyway. :)I have thought of a few features though that I want to include that will have a security advantage. I don't think we'll be having windows on theist or west sides of the house. The reason for that is that I don't think we'll be needing the solar warmth coming into the house.
I think I want to have a solid wood front door, because they look so nice. That too will begged security.For the windows on the north (front) and south (rear) of the house, I want to have wooden shutters. The reason for them is that I want to be able to shutter the windows when we are away, in case of hurricanes, tropical storms, and earthquakes. I wouldn't want flying glass or broken windows being exposed for weeks at a time. I plan to have the shutters designed so that they can be locked from the inside of the house.I've seen the iron grill work that you describe. If it seems to be a common feature in Mexico (and I have seen it in a lot of places) we will probably have it. Local people seem to know what is a good idea for their area.A dog?
I'd love to have a dog now, but I just don't have the time to do it properly now. Maybe when I retire. It won't likely be a Rotweiller guard dog, but I think most dogs have some persuasive effect.
Re Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by steve on October 09, 1996 Brian:
I think you are wrong when it comes to stats about the rise of crime in Mexico. It may be true in Mexico City but I question your sources about other parts of Mexico. For the past 30 years the "well-to-do" have been putting broken glass on their high perimeter fences and using antsy iron bars to protect windows and doors from unwanted intruders. Also, for the last 30 years, it has been known that citizens get fed up with their tyrannical police and local government forces and proceed to take the law into their own hands. There is injustice, poverty, and strife throughout Mexico. I suppose if you are involved with righting those wrongs you may put yourself in a vulnerable position. I still say there is less violent crime in Mexico than the US. The Mexican people, to me, have a greater respect for older citizens which makes it even safer. And lastly, just like every other place in the world, you have to have a common sense approach about how to act, where you can go, and what you can say. Mexico is a great place to live but not a perfect place.
Re Crime in Mexico
Posted by jennifer j. rose on October 09, 1996
Mexico's not a crime-free paradise, and neither is the U.S. Crime doesn't respect national boundaries.I've been burglarized several times in the U.S, and I've been burglarized in Mexico (by an American). When I sit down and think about it, I don't think I know anyone who had never been burglarized, even though the losses may range from insignificant to substantial. The police in Mexico aren't going to speed to your burglarized house with sirens roaring if you're burgarlized just for the sake of filing a report; consequently, most burglaries go unreported. In the U.S., most are reported but remain unsolved.
In the end, there's little difference.Even so, living in Mexico doesn't warrant lowering your guard. We keep several Dobermans on the premises, never open the gate after dark, keep all doors locked, have someone housesit if we're going to be gone overnight...as I see it this is, or at least should be, standard operating procedure wherever one lives.Don't wear your Gucci or Rolex to the tianguis or out in crowds. Don'tflash large sums of money. Even though you appear foreign (and there's noescaping that, especially if you're pale and blonde), you don't need to make it a focal point...just blend in.I sense a far greater degree of personal safety and concern for the elderly in Mexico than I do the U.S. And I feel that my mother (who'd shoot me if I publicly revealed her age) is far safer in Morelia living alone than she would be in most of America's small towns
Re: Crime in Mexico
Posted by Marvin Kemel on November 08, 1996
Jenifer's posting makes a lot of sense. The worst thing a person can do is flash fancy jewelry or money. Many of the people in the markets or out on the street are very poor. The only social safety net they have is family.If we flash these items it is sort of an"in your face attitude" and can only lead to trouble. I would add : do not act like an "ugly American" or Canadian. Be courteous, kind , considerate and remember we are visitors not citizens. Be carefull where you go in large cities after dark (just as owed in any north American metropolis). I also agree with the other postings that Mexico is generally safer than the US. I will admit that this year with the unemployment, inflation,and weak peso there appears to be more crime than in other years. But if you are hungry and poor maybe that is the only choice.
Re: Crime/ retire in Mexico Posted
by tony ferrell on October 08, 1996
The recent upswing of violence in Mexico has a lot of us Red thinking about what to do about retirement. I myself am still going ahead and building a house in a small town north of Mexico City. My long term prediction is that Mexico's violence will increase with the "opening" of Mexico. The"forced" pipeline of drugs through Mexico will gradually make things worst. I don't expect things to get as bad as here for a looong time. After all how long is it taking the Indian groups to speak Spanish? :) I am betting that the Mexican people will continue to hold their morals together along with their families. Tony
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Rod Collins on October 05, 1996
In regards to crime in Mexico since I live here on a daily basis, and have so for many years I feel crime is higher than normal but most is petty crime. There is no comparison with that in north America I have probably traveled in my lifetime over 40,000 miles in Mexico on the road and road crime seems to be about the same as was 15 years ago. and Most of it happens at night.Most of the crime now is due to the desperation of the people do to lack of jobs especially in areas such as Mexico city.
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico
Posted by Brian J. Larkin on October 05, 1996
Most if not all of us in MTMG I suspect are painfully aware of the reasons for the upsurge in crime in Mexico. My question was not a moral judgment We are also aware of the magnitude of crime in the U.S. and Canada.Certainly living in Washington, D.C., which only recently was known as the murder capital of the country, makes me more than slightly sensitive to the issue.But my question is not one of comparisons. I know Washington. I have lived here a long time. I have made my peace with it and I am comfortable within. I know its ways and where, why and how to be careful.Moving to Mexico is a different ball game. It has its own language and there different rules. I understand neither well.I still wonder if the upsurge in crime has influenced the thinking of others who plan to retire in Mexico?
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico
Posted by steve on October 05, 1996
The facts prove violent crime in Mexico is far below that of the US. I am looking forward to a more peaceful existence in Mexico and am not at all concerned about what I consider bad press and paranoia about the dangers of traveling there. For as long as I can remember, there have been stories in the press about American tourists robbed and murdered and these stories seem to be worse the further from the border you happen to be. I always relate this story to folks who ask about getting robbed in Mexico: In Mexico, if you get robbed, you might get a knife pulled on you, have your belongings taken, and watch the thief run off into the night whereas in thus, you get a gun pulled on you, have your belongings taken and then you are shot five times in the back while the thief saunters up the street tubby a little crack.
Re: violence in Mexico
Posted by Ivar on November 02, 1996
:I have to admit that reading these postings on violence is bursting my bubble about Mexico being the perfect place for me to retire. But even with this piece or reality sinking in (I wish the issue wasn't raised and I could hold on to my fantasy a bit longer)I still plan to go to Mexico as I don't like to have my adventurous impulses short circuited. As one saying goes: neither fear nor desire should control ones life. My backup plan is Hawaii where I lived for five years and loved it. I couldn't afford to retire in the more popular areas but maybe on the Big Island or one of the least popular islands like Molokai or Lanai. Food for thought.
Re: violence in Mexico
Posted by Wayne Lundberg on November 16, 1996
I have been traveling into Mexico for two years now, every other week.Sunday to Monterrey, Monday eve to Guadalajara, Wed to the DF and back on Thursday's red eye Mexican 480. I keep a low profile, don't show off with a Rolex on my wrist or expensive luggage. I'll walk the streets in any city or town, day or evening and have never been assaulted, bothered orpan-handled as much as in any U.S. city where you can't walk a block without having to steer clear of a panhandler or group of teenagers. In Mexico a group of teenagers will nod in respect of my graying hair and call me Senior Wayne. In the U.S. I get the clear message that I'm a pain in the royal butt and why don't I disappear.
Yes, kidnapping is a problem - but in Mexico it's a business. You must have shown your wealth and affluence in some manner for them to consider you as a victim.Latest poop is that there have been some 30 kidnappings in Tijuana during the year. All victims released after proper negotiations and payments. All victims are from the upper crust of the 10% wealthiest families. A lowly retired gringo is not their cup of tea.Forget your car and take buses and cabs. You have nothing but time and seeing the real Mexico by standing next to a person on a bus, waiting in the bus stop or station, seeing through a taxi driver's eyes, is much more rewarding and much less frustrating than owning and worrying about a stupid car. You'll get stuck here and there from time to time --- wonderful opportunity to get to know the local drink, food, music and jokes. You must learn Spanish!! And that, too, is part of the fun.Enjoy!!
Re: violence in Mexico
Posted by steve on November 02, 1996
I have lived in Hawaii (Oahu) and it is my opinion the crime there is worse than Mexico. If you are white in Hawaii you have a good chance of being victimized.There is definitely a racial bias on behalf of the locals there. Maybe it's a good place for those of us who do not understand what being a minority in America is all about.
For me, I would much rather live in Mexico.
CRIME AND RETIREMENENT IN MEXICO - A PROBLEM?
Posted by Brian J. Larkin on October 05, 1996
Crime in Mexico is on the upswing and has many tourists as well as Mexicans
worried. The U.S. State Department has issued a warning to travelers
regarding crime in Mexico. Those who subscribe to MEXICO2000 receive dozens
of report weekly in which drugs, murders, robberies and kidnappings figure
prominently. The Mexican newsgroups such as soc.culture.mexican,
alt.mexico, and rec.travel.latin-america regularly carry posting reporting
on, asking about, and denying any danger from crime in Mexico. AIM, in a
recent issue on Cuernavaca, reported that retirees say they feel safe at
home but are careful on the streets. In its current issue AIM notes that
retirees and native residents in Morelia say they feel safe. The point is
that crime is so much of an issue that AIM feels compelled to reassure its
readers.
Bringing this closer to home, Elizabeth and I and another couple who have
been accompanying us to Mexico for the last few years were planning to
drive in February from our home in D.C. to Juarez, Guanajuato, San Miguel,
Oaxaca and over the mountains to Puerto Escondido. Our friends decided the
other day that the dangers of diving in Mexico are too great and they will
fly down and meet us in P.E.
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 06, 1996
The current problems have not alterer our long-term plans, but then again,
retirement is 15+ years away for me. The increase in violence concerns me
more in the sense that the Mexican people deserve better than a country
that is becoming increasingly violent. As with so many times when violence
occurs, the violence is turned against the closest people, one's friends
and colleagues, rather than against those who are responsible for the
conditions that led to the despair.
Glenna and I fully intend to go ahead with building our little house in
Troncones, Guerrero. We intend to pay fair wages for the labour and use
local suppliers as much as possible. We hope that our little involvement in
Mexico will be a contributor toward an economy that benefits people.
We recognize however that our tiny amount of involvment is insignificant
compared to the massive losses from the legitimate economy and from
Mexicans in general because of serious structural flaws that promote the
accumulation of vast wealth by a small number and vast poverty by others.
This is not to say that the serious problems and the violence that has
followed has not affected us. We will continue to observe what is going on.
Few people wanted to retire into South Africa when it treated so many of
its community so poorly. I think that if the current problems are not
resolved to the benefit of Mexicans, fewer people will feel comfortablewith l
ong-term or short-term plans involving Mexico.
It's not much of a vacation or retirement if you take it by living in
comfort among poverty, especially the unnecessarily impoverished.
---------------------------------------------------------
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Brian J. Larkin on October 09, 1996
I appreciate your thoughtful response, Ernie, and would like to follow up with a few questions.
As a result of your professional life in social services you are
undoubtedly more sensitive than many to the increasing frailty of people as
they age. Indeed after retirement the rate of increase in vulnerability
becomes exponential. The sense of power and security felt or at least
expressed by some who still play football is less noticeable in most
70-year-olds.
While retirement lies many years ahead you are planning now for that time.
You say that the ìcurrent [crime related] problems have not altered our
long-term plansî and that you ìfully intend to go ahead with building our
little house in Troncones, Guerrero.î
Has the upsurge in crime had any effect on your home design plans? For
example, windows in many homes of the wealthy in Mexico (and poor in
Washington, D.C.) are protected with grill work and others have elaborate
and sophisticated sound and motion detection systems. Guard dogs are
popular. Have you made any provisions in your home design to provide a
greater measure of safety than you anticipated when you began planning?
In a particularly insightful observation you wrote, ìIt's not much of a
vacation or retirement if you take it by living in comfort among poverty,
especially the unnecessarily impoverished.î
Treating others fairly and with respect, paying fair wages and using local
labor are sine qua non. The question is, while these behaviors are
necessary are they sufficient?
The insider/outsider factor is always present where aliens are involved.
This phenomenon becomes increasingly important during times of social
unrest. Living in Mexico, we are the outsiders, the aliens. I recall
vividly and uncomfortably the anti-American sentiment in Mexico during the
early 1960s following the Bay of Pigs. I remember living in a small village
90 km. north of D.F. in 1961 and 1962 and the hostility I felt at the time.
On July 25 1996, the AP carried a story on unrest in Mexico.
"Business leaders in the state of Morelos have asked the government to
deploy the army in order to restore public order. Lynchings by angry
citizens and numerous robberies and murders have caused many to describe
the important state as being "ungovernable." The National Chamber of
Commerce in Cuernavaca has asked that soldiers be deployed in patrols in
the major cities of Morelos so that commercial life can be restored and
safety assured."
Clearly the situation at this time in Mexico is not close to that of the
60s. Nevertheless, it is a concern and I am not sure what its implications
are for retirement...
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 11, 1996
Just the other day a friend asked me if I would really slow down when we
went to live in Mexico or if I would continue to be active in social work,
labour, and political actities. I think my answer surprised her.
My view is that when I am in Mexico, I have the privilege of being a guest
in someone else's country. While I will continue to have the views that I
have, I think it would be rude to tell others how they should run their
affairs. I would find it offensive if Americans bought land in Canada, then
came here and tried to tell us how we should run our country. I don't want
to do the same in spending time in Mexico. On the other hand, I hope that
perhaps the way I conduct myself will be appreciated by those who
appreciate fairness, honesty, equity, etc.
Re: Crime and Retirement in Mexico - A Problem?
Posted by Ernie Gorrie on October 11, 1996
We haven't made any specific security plans based on recent events in
Mexico. We don't have any plans for motion detectors, alarm systems, etc.
Troncones is about 40 km outside of Zihuatanejo and doesn't have telephone
service, so an alarm system wouldn't likely be very useful anyway. :)
I have thought of a few features though that I want to include that will
have a security advantage. I don't think we'll be having windows on the
east or west sides of the house. The reason for that is that I don't think
we'll be needing the solar warmth coming into the house. I think I want to
have a solid wood front door, because they look so nice. That too will be
good security.
Posted by Thom on December 07, 1996
One thing that no one has mentioned is the differences between the US and Mexico regarding gun ownership. While many Mexicans do own guns, (often illegally),the number of firearms in circulation pro capita must be very small compared to the US. It would be interesting to see how many people are injured or killed by firearms in Mexico. As far as I know, the US is far and away the world leader in this respect. Maybe "guns don't kill people", but an awfull lot of people are killed in this country every day as a result of the incredibly easy acess to them that we allow.
Because of this difference in our two countries, I beleive that I will feel safer retiring in Mexico than in almost any city in the US.
Posted by David on December 08, 1996
As an aside to this discussion, the "word on the street" at the moment is that there has been increased diligence on confiscating illegal firearms from non-nationals (read US citizens)who have brought them into the country- similar to Canada's approach.
Combined Posting of Richard Ferguson on December 01, 1996 with integrated response
Posted by steve on December 01, 1996
> I got flamed a bit on the crime topic, I noticed. Some of the critism claimed that I shouldn't give statistics unless I had all the facts and details, but none of the followup items contained any statistics, only opinion and anecdotes.
*****Actually Richard you did give some stats. You should look at the percentages about feeling safe in Mexico. Are not those statistics?
So, I decided to post the entire writeup, even though I assume that I will get flamed some more.
*****Just because someone disagrees with what you say doesn't mean it is a flame or personal attack. If you can't stand the heat of the stove, don't go into the kitchen.
I just got back from a week and a half in Mexico,
> not in large cities, and felt safe and
> comfortable. Nonetheless, there are real crime problems in Mexico, and Mexico is not as safe as
> it used to be, (doubling of crime rates in four
> years is an example).
*****Here again is reference to some statistics that you can't back up. Doubling according to who? How were the stats computed. We are not stupid here.
I still go to Mexico, and urge people to remember that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
CRIME AND SAFETY IN MEXICO
Crime and safety in Mexico are a frequent topic in rec.travel.latin-america. In some cases, disagreement has resulted in flames. Those who have had problems, or who know people who have had problems, naturally believe that Mexico is a dangerous place.
******Just because I have been robbed in the US (and I have) doesn't mean I am going to tell the world the US is an unsafe place to travel.
Those who have traveled extensively in Mexico without problems believe that Mexico is as safe as home, or safer. I personally have never had a problem in months of travel throughout Mexico.
Crime statistics are notoriously difficult to compare from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in the US, so comparisons between Mexico
and the US are naturally difficult and questionable.
*******If this is true, then why do it?
A joint survey conducted by the Los Angeles Times and La Reforma, (reported September 15, 1996) revealed an interesting comparison between the US and Mexico. The question was whether or not you feel safe in your neighborhood walking alone at night. In the US, 68% felt safe; in Mexico, 49% felt safe.
What is more or less proven is that crime in Mexico has increased significantly since the start of the economic crisis in 1994. The September 1996 issue of Mexico Business noted that the crime rate has doubled, comparing 1996 to 1993. Informal sources agree that crime has increased of residents of Mexico city interviewed in the La Reforma poll had a member of their family victimized by crime in the last year.
******Here again your use of stats is very questionable. This kind of logic saying one city is as dangerous as another is just plain false. Did you know New York city is getting safer?
understand that Mexico City has the highest crime rate in Mexico. If you are really worried about crime, skip Mexico City.
The crime pattern in Mexico is similar to that in the US; big cities generally have higher crime rates than small towns or rural areas. One difference is that some rural areas in Guerrero, Oaxaca, Chiapas and other states have become somewhat lawless and violent, even to the point of having lynchings of alleged lawbreakers. However, these are not generally areas that tourists would visit, and the victims are usually local residents. In some areas of northern Mexico, the lawlessness is tied to drug trafficing.
******You use the word "generally" often in your descriptions. You are vague, use statements not backed up by any reasonable facts, and generally speaking offering rumor and innuendo. This is not a flame just a criticism of words that are generally used in the press as typical misinformation.
THE BOTTOM LINE - I still go to Mexico. I am more cautious now. My next trip includes a city where the guerillas have hung banners; we plan to avoid government buildings and police stations. We love Mexico, and do not plan to stop our visits.
Practical tips: 1. Use the safety deposit box at your hotel, rather than carrying your valuables with you at all times. 2. Try to appear unobtrusive but confident. Don't flash money or look like you have
> lots of money. The middle class look probably is best; you get some
> respect, but don't stand out. 3. Drunkenness will set you up for victimization. 4. Be cautious at night. 5. Ask about safety, especially if you will be going off the beaten track. If the area is questionable, take a taxi or a tour. I know that this is a somewhat pessimistic view, but I would not skip Mexico just because of their current problems. I would go, but use a bit of extra caution.
******On one hand you talk violence and lynchings and the next minute you are going there. Sounds to me like you just want it all to yourself! :-)
Posted by steve on December 01, 1996
>Statistics on anything in Mexico are either non existant or tainted.
********This is one of the most "right on" things I have heard you say Marvin!
But if every one of us in this group were to post our own personal stories and our own "feel" for the crime situation I think the results would speak for themselves. I totally agree but I hope this doesn't include rumors and innuendo. I hope this means REAL first hand stories.
In the meantime I will be more cautious than ever before. Richard stated that Northern Mex. was not as bad as other parts. This is changing quickly. You cannot travel in the desert @ nite for fear of either being arrested by the narcos or shot by the drug traffickers. This dope dealing has spilled into the small towns making life a little less disneyish.
******It has always been foolish to travel at night in Mexico for a lot of reasons.
Many of the Indian tribes in Sonora and Sinaloa are heavily armed. Like their American counterparts they have learned to network. The Seris in Sonora are fully aware of the Chiapis situation. The Mexican gov't continues to mistreet the natives and one day they may show some force. Lately the Seris have been stopping fishing boats( pleasure and commercial ) and demanding they be paid for fishing in "their ocean". As for robberies, kidnapping, etc. no matter what Steve says they have increased. BTW if a "business elite" is kidnapped or robbed does that mean it is OK.
******No, it is not ok but indicative of what the business elite has done to bring on the wrath.
Sounds like a communist theory to me.
*******The zapitistas are known to have some marxist ideas but why not? Is capitalism going to take care of them? Isn't it true that Somoza owned almost all of Nicaragua?
The only people that would change that corrupt system were communist. Communism is just an economic system which has a different method of distributing the resources of a nation. If it is voted in by a democratic government then it could be the right way. To insinuate that I have communistic ideas is ok by me but to use the word communism as some sort of slam just shows that you don't really understand the meaning of the concept.
How about some other posters telling their stories? Do you think San Miguel, or Chapalla, or Cuernavaca or Alamos is less safe than in previous years?? Let's hear some replies????
Posted by Lee, Dec 4, 1996
I have had a personal encounter with bandidos in Michoacan during daylight hours, but in a rather remote area. Three of us (females) had driven to see the volcano that rose from the corn US, so comparisons between Mexico and the US are naturally difficult and questionable. A joint survey conducted by the Los Angeles Times and La Reforma, (reported September 15, 1996) revealed an interesting comparison between the US and Mexico. The question was whether or not you feel safe in your neighborhood walking alone at night. In the US, 68% felt safe; in Mexico, 49% felt safe.
What is more or less proven is that crime in Mexico has increased significantly since the start of the economic crisis in 1994. The September 1996 issue of Mexico Business noted that the crime rate has doubled, comparing 1996 to 1993. Informal sources agree that crime has increased significantly.
Posted by steve on November 26, 1996
These stats you present, to me, do not offer much in the form of reality. You talk about high kidnapping rates...high according to what?
The survey you talk about....where was it taken? How many were included in the survey? I could do the same thing and take the survey in East Los Angeles or Harlem and come up with so me pretty nasty figures. Also, when we talk crime stats how about using per capita figures?
You say the figures may be "questionable"...What I say is that this type of posting is sort of like reading the National Enquirer. Why even post it unless you have something that is half way believable? This kind of bad press has been going on about Latin America for the 30 years I have been travelling to Mexico and the further away you get from the border, the worse it gets.
Posted by Marvin Kemel on November 28, 1996
Steve: you are right that people have always exaggerated the crime in Mexico. Until recently I always felt safer in Mex. than in the USA or Canada. But you musthave your head in the sand if you do not agree that in the last 18 months with the economic crisis crime has increased( at least in the major cities) to the point that indeed many areas are not safe. Case in point: Hermosillo, Son. Three years ago I would walk the streets at nite and it was like in a Walt Disney movie- children, families, young lovers,all having a pleasant "walkabout".
You would have to be foolish or stupid to attempt the same today. Instaed of a friendly populace one would encounter: muggers, street gangs,convenience store robbers, etc. The reason for this is obvious: hunger. I cant quote statistics but the local paper" El Imoarcial" is full of crime stories. The Governor has made statements of concern. The wealthy all have bodyguards. Some of the wealthy families are living in exile in Az. or Calif. I am sure this is mirrored in other cities in Mex.
We have friends in Hermosillo that do not leave the house after sundown. Their children are escorted to school. More residents have dogs than ever before. I still think Mexico is a relatively safe country, but one must exercise much common sense:
avoid rough areas , do not travel at nite, etc. Although these are rules one should always follow they are more important now. I note that the US State Dept. has issued warnings about travel in some Mexican States.
Posted by steve on November 28, 1996
First of all, this isn't the first time Mexico has gone thru an economic crisis. The extreme devaluation of the peso has happened several times in the last thirty years. This is not something new. Rich Mexicans whether they be politicians or businessmen have always employed bodyguards and live inside locked and guarded compounds.
Some of them were so dishonest that people got fed up with the corruption and took the law into their own hands. This again is nothing new. Since the population keeps multiplying like some sort of death wish, the crime rate around larger cities is probably bad but what else is new? This is happening in any large city on earth. It is not a matter of keeping ones head in the sand but rather getting the proper perspective.
Is there more crime now really? Just because one neighborhood is not perceived as safe as it used to be there are other more desireable areas that have become safe havens.
Safety has so much to do with demeanor, attitude, savvy, and perception that posting blatant unreliable statistics coupled with rumor only adds to the general bad press that affects the vision of Latin America by the general public. For thirty years peoole have questioned whether I felt safe in Mexico. "Aren't you afraid you will get robbed?" they say, yep, the same question over and over for 30 years!
You know what? I was robbed in the US in 1987, yep, they kicked my door in and stole
thousands of dollars of my professional camera gear and trashed my home to boot. Is the crime getting worse in the US?
Actually it is getting better, but the age of the criminal is going down. This all boils down to the fact that there is crime everywhere and where do you feel most comfortable. But, besides making the house look finished -- they discourage amateur burglars and remove temptation from neighborhood kids.
Like any place in the world, Mexico has crime. Without question, crime rates have been increasing over the past few years. That shouldn't surprise anyone coming from the United States, a place where crime and personal safety has become the number one concern of the country. Take a look at some U.S. neighborhoods. The bars you see on windows and doors clearly aren't meant to be decorative. They are grim attempts to protect occupants from runaway, violent crime.
I personally see crime as another one of those annoyances I have to put up with if I want to live in Mexico -- an annoyance like potholes, mordidas and nasty water. To avoid destroying my car I have to drive carefully to avoid potholes. That's an annoyance. To avoid crime, I have to be careful where I park my car and where I keep my wallet. That's an annoyance. (So far, I haven't been much affected by crime, but potholes have eaten several of my tires.) In short, crime is not new to Mexico, and there’s little you can do about it except take precautions.
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